Sunday, June 5, 2011

Dark Eldar Vs. The Universe!

I thought I would foray into a codex vs. codex ranking and compare my thoughts on how Dark Eldar stack up in a game against other Codices. I’ll be using a ranking system of 1-10, where a 1 is a colossal challenge to not get blown away and 10 is a game I expect to win with one hand tied behind my back.


*ponders* Hrm….but then there are some codices that have builds ranging from 1-10. I’ll have to break down some codices by build.


*ponders more* And then I had a realization. I’ve seen people try doing this for various codices before, or ranking codices in competitive order, or assigning tiers to them. And at the end of the day…it is all meaningless. There is no value add in doing so. Codices can’t be compared in a vacuum, or ranked against each other because the definitive factor in a game isn’t the lists at play, it’s the general behind them. And we already have a ranking system for generals – its called RankingsHQ.

Hulksmash is beating people up with Tyranids. I can’t imagine facing a Tyranid army that I wouldn’t almost laugh off the table. I *do* laugh Necrons off the table…and my Necrons are undefeated.

If 40k commentators were to shift into professional sports, the game commentary would sound like this: “Gosh Terry, the Patriots are in bad shape going into this game. The Cowboys are spamming the new Nike cleat, which is entirely overpowered. I saw them doing a pre-game voodoo ritual over the football, and the Patriots don’t have any good anti-voodo in their roster. Don’t even make me start in on their helmets.”

Nothing about the coach, nothing about the team..”Oh! The Cowboys won the coin toss. Game OVER for the Patriots.”

It frustrates me that people keep wasting their time comparing tools when they should be comparing coaches…or in this case, generals.

John: “Well Terry, Hulkmash is good at disarming opponents with his mood and getting them to joke and take the game less seriously, which is a definite advantage on his side of the board.”
Terry: “That’s true John, but Dash looks to be in the Dark Eldar zone, no doubt wondering how many of his models he could prime in Hulksmash’s blood before someone pulled him off.”
John: “Well, they’ve both brought the tools to deal with each other, so we’ll see how this contest plays out. Where would you place your bets?”
Terry: “That’s a tough call John. Both of these guys have fearsome tournament records. Dash is playing his tried and true Dark Eldar, and Hulk brought out his Grey Knights for the first time in a major tournaments. They say practice makes perfect.”
John: “Well we’re going to put that to the test in the battle between these two titans. Who’s going to make the first exploitable mistake?


No discussion of army builds in there. We’ve both got the tools to beat each other, just like almost every set of players who face off – and people get too tied up in what the tools you brought are, and less about how you use them. I saw the armies that made it to the top tables at Adepticon. Most of them are lists that I would be glad to face off against. But there is *NO* army that I will face off against in overconfidence if I don’t know the general thoroughly. And if I know a general thoroughly enough to be overconfident, we don’t play – outside of tournaments.


That’s the secret of my success. I always presume that the person across the table from me is better than me, and is going to make every decision that will hurt me the most. At the Alamo GT when I faced off against what looked like a bad Vanilla Marine army across from me…I didn’t gloat to myself. He was sitting at max battle points the same as me. That’s what’s relevant to me. If I get a chance to face off against Tony(?) the D.C. Wonderchild at the Nova Open this year…I don’t care what army he’s playing. I care that he’s 16-0 on the GT circuit. I hope that I crush his skull in and bathe my models in brain matter (figuratively of course). If I do, then I can vicariously believe that I could have won Adepticon if I had gone. If he beats me…its going to be because I made mistakes, and he exploited them. Post-loss, that’s the sum of my thinking…what did I do wrong? Where did I lose this game?


That’s my thought of the day. I started with thinking about comparing DE to other codices, realized what a useless waste of time that sort of comparison is, expounded on generalship and the woeful lack of recognition of it in our hobby, and ranted for a bit.


The other day someone said, “I don’t understand how you always win. You should at least lose SOMETIMES.” I do. My DE lost twice last year. I’m sure I’ll lose again in the future. I don’t win because I’ve discovered a super-secret awesome army list. I have the same tools that everyone else does. I win because I’m exceptional at judging people, making evaluations of them, and zoning in to exploit the PLAYER weaknesses. I wrote a pretty lengthy section of how psychology fits into 40k in my DE tactica, which resides on Dakka Dakka for the moment. Game Five of the Alamo GT…I’m getting absolutely crushed. Murdered. I have been the whole game. Every shot whiffs, every enemy shot explodes a DE vehicle. I end the game winning. I won because of Dash vs. David, not because of DE vs. Blood Angels.


Ponder that the next time you hear someone (hopefully not yourself) complain about a weak codex, or about a game being decided by dice.

*EDIT* A friend of mine who's opinion I respect tells me that there's too much ego in here confusing the message, so let me add this edit to try making my message clear.

NO codex can be ranked or tiered by itself. Such a ranking or comparison system is a fallacy. Generalship determines the success or failure of each army brought to the table. The addition of two examples (Hulksmash with Tyranids, Dashofpepper with Necrons) was meant to illustrate how my own personal thoughts about codices in themselves can be turned on their head by the general piloting them - which is why it is never safe to be overconfident going into a game.

Comments (15)

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Dash as much as i like you, you dont come off to m as the most...... modest person. And i think that could probably have something to do with all the Drama. Your good, very good, very very good, but people dont like you flaunting it around. I personally dont particularly care, your some guy who is good at 40k on the internet, i will probably never meet you or play you (unless you come to australia :D ), but my point is, saying things like "im exceptional at etc...." is true. But you dont have to mention it.

Not meant to be negative or anything, i love reading your posts, they have helped me become a better player and for that i thenk you. Keep doing the good work
1 reply · active 721 weeks ago
Nightwatch's avatar

Nightwatch · 721 weeks ago

Magnanimity isn't bad by itself. Perhaps pursuing it to the extent that Dash does is what takes the drama over the top. People these days are so used to relativism, political correctness, and other forms of wishy-washiness that they are shocked when a bold statement is made.

At any rate -

Dash, if I use my Vespid incredibly well, is it possible for my list to win?
I'd say yes - but do you think that a better unit in incompetent hands would triumph over a terrible unit in skilled hands?
Nightwatch...this post isn't a personal flaunt of my generalship, but an effort to get readers to consider that all the "Codex vs. codex" and "Rankings" and "Tiers" are garbage - and that the folks who buy into them don't understand skill.

This is not about me....this is about how people approach the game, the competitive ability of codexes, and attempting to shift the paradigm of thought away from the codex and towards the general.

Vespids....if you're a good general, you're going to evaluate the choices available to you in your codex. If you choose to populate your armylist with bad units...then you're probably not a good general. Part of generalship is finding units that work, combinations that fit your playstyle, and that give you the tools to win on the table-top. Does a good Tau general put Vespids in their list?

Most people dismiss Tau as a competitive army. And Necrons. I've done well with both. So do others. Its not because there's a secret formula of models...its because of the generals using them.
2 replies · active 721 weeks ago
I've run into this myself. No matter what your goal is in writing something there are people who will read it and extract whatever meaning they want out of it. While it is possible to recognize and change these behaviors it's not necessarily their fault; it's simply human nature.

I wrote a post on a video game forum about what separates a mediocre/good player from a great player. The main point of the article was that the great player just puts more effort into maximizing their potential and that a lot of good players could become great if they just put a little more effort into it. The post was not about me at all but since I included a couple of my own achievements as examples nearly everyone latched on to that and flamed the hell out of me for being arrogant and bragging about how good I was, which was not true at all.

I didn't read the article and think "boy, Dashofpepper sure is arrogant" but everyone interprets what they see and read through their own mental filters and the internet allows them to share their reactions without fear of reprisal that they would face in the real world. There are things that we as writers can do to try to minimize these reactions but for the most part you can only hope that most of your readers will have the ability to think and behave rationally.
Nightwatch's avatar

Nightwatch · 721 weeks ago

I wasn't really responding to your post, but to Tekeino's. I see your point though, there's a lot to generalship beyond simply the army being played.

I find that a lot of units are neglected because of their inability to win their points back, which seems to be the main concern of a surprising number of people (or at least the most vocal ones on the internet). Perhaps if people concentrated less on a unit's ability by themselves and more on army synergy as a whole they'd be more likely to improve their own tournament score.

That also has to do a lot with which codices are seen as the most powerful and least powerful - there used to be quite a few gargoyle-haters out there, but Hulksmash has proved their use more than a few times, when their synergy with other units is taken into account.

I don't know where I'm going with this, so...meh.

Great post though, I like the incorporation of humour. Keep up the good work, and keep me coming back.
:D
Since you've joined this blog, Dash, I don't visit nearly as much. Hulk used to post stuff that had serious relevance to people interested in gaming in a competitive setting with the armies he plays. You have posted little to mention really. Take a look at your posts and ask yourself how much meat is there ... I can answer for you now, not much.
4 replies · active 721 weeks ago
Ah....my first troll.� :)� I'll engage in this one instead of deleting since I'm due for some fun at someone elses' expense.

First, saying that you read someone's blog less because it gained a new author makes you sound like an idiot.

Second, if you don't like what I post, don't read it.� Since you've established that you don't like me or my content, you are either posting your comment maliciously, or you genuinely don't know how to sort through our posts to find Hulksmash's comment.� In which case you're an idiot.� There's a third possibility...that you are a malicious idiot, and given that you doubtlessly know how to use your left mouse button to click on articles titled "Hulksmash" as the author instead of the ones labeled, "Dashofpepper" this is far more likely.�

Third, you've accused me of lowering readership.� In truth, pageviews are skyrocketing.� People who follow the blog are skyrocketing.� We've got a nice system here, and its growing quickly.� We've already made enough in ad revenue to pay for a GT entry, and we're both extremely grateful to the readers who come, read the content, and click an ad or two to support us.

Fourth, you said that I've posted little to mention, nothing with meat, and that unlike Hulksmash, my posts don't have serious relevance to people interested in gaming in a competitive setting.� See Point #1.� You're an idiot.� Hulksmash read this thread before it got published.� We talked about it.� He thought the "DE vs. the Universe" ranking idea was stupid, and was glad that I wrote what I did - and thought it was well-written.� Hulksmash has an opinion I respect.� When he tells me something is a bad idea...he's got more ability to shift my opinion than anyone else.� He's the Wilson to my House.� A random malicious idiot defaming my efforts as "meaningless" and "content-less" and "meatless" doesn't get my consideration, they invoke two minutes worth of me pondering "Can someone really be that dumb?"� Followed by the conclusion that while people can be dumb, they can't be THAT dumb, so must be malicious instead.

And fifth, Gutcheck - is a military term.� The Air Force doesn't use it.� Only Navy Seals use it, and they don't allow idiots in their ranks, so that disqualifies you.� I'm an Army guy myself...and while I've seen some *really* dumb stuff in my day, believing you to be a soldier in the best armed service would be completely depressing.� Put it all together, and I'm guessing that you're a marine.� The lack of professionalism makes me guess that you're junior enlisted.� The fact that you're an idiot makes me guess that you're going to stay that way.� The fact that you're a malicious idiot makes me guess that you're the dregs of the recruiting barrel, and have a short career ahead of you.�

And yes.� If you light my doormat on fire, I *WILL* burn down your entire village.� Don't troll if you don't want to dance with me.� And don't presume that since you're too dumb to understand concepts being presented, that there is nothing of worth in them.



Wow, i didnt even expect a response! (not an insult or anythin of the sort)
BrotherErekose's avatar

BrotherErekose · 721 weeks ago

"Can someone really be that dumb?" Followed by the conclusion that while people can be dumb, they can't be THAT dumb, so must be malicious instead."

-- No, no, Dash, they *can* be that dumb. Never underestimate the power of Stupidity. Like hydrogen, it's universal, and there's more of it than you'd believe.
Alright - I've gone and made an edit because a friend of mine told me the message was getting lost.

Dashofpepper's avatar

Dashofpepper · 721 weeks ago

No need to tell me that you're not insulting. :) The ones that say "This isn't an insult" and then insult are the real losers. Like, "Dude you're a worthless person and I'm glad you're gone from Dakka. But I expected you to delete this because you don't like dissenters." That wasn't dissenting, that was asshattery. I play nice when people play nice to me. But I *do* escalate trouble that people start with me.
I meant to reply to Tekeino, but put your name instead.
Not sure about your sports analysis... I think you've missed a situation that comes up all the time and is applicable to some codex-codex comparisons:

"The Patriots and Cowboys both have top-notch coaching staffs, but the Pats have had a couple draft busts in recent years and are looking at some key injuries. They just don't have the personnel to match up well with Dallas and this game is going to be a real uphill struggle for them."

Match-up problems are a fact of life in any sport... you can have two teams with good coaches, solid records... and one team just does not have a good answer for someone on the other side and he just goes off on them.
Though I do not (yet) play 40k, I do play WHFB and find the same things apply there. The best player can take the worst book and knock off average players with the strong builds from the best book.

Well stated and definitely more "meat" in this than in 90% of the blogs out there.

Thanks for taking the time to post.
Dash, you make a great point about the general being the most important thing. But I do think you can rank the codices the way you originally intended - just pretend you are playing against yourself in all circumstances. I suspect that if you were playing a general of equal ability (yourself) that the game would be decided by more than just dice.

- whoadirty

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