Tuesday, September 27, 2011

Rantings on Dark Eldar: Continuing the Xenos Surge


Hey folks! 

I always forget to write this at the end of articles, so up front it goes:  As always, we appreciate you clicking on ads!  Hulksmash tells me that your efforts might actually pay for our Adepticon Team Tournament next year.  I presume he’s talking about the entry fees, not plane tickets and lodgings and stuff – but anything that helps is help appreciated. J

The purpose of this article is to address what I see as some “myths” about Dark Eldar perpetrating the internet, often advanced by “listened-to” parties about Dark Eldar – things I find irritating, incorrect, unsubstantiated, or a mixture of all three.  I also intend to browbeat army-building techniques and advance my own agenda for how to formulate a cohesive army.  As always, advice I give is flavored with my competitive nature, so apply as needed. 

I should note that if you find any of this derogatory, screw you! :D  I type the words that come to mind, without the filters that posting on Dakka require to prevent typing a word that a family-friendly and innocent pre-teen who’s been raised in a Christian household, private schooled away from the vulgarities of public existence and exposure to words like “hell, damn, turd, fag”, but who has yet evolved a such a deep passion for Warhammer 40k that they’ve turned to the internet forums and blogosphere to slake their thirst for knowledge.  To be honest, in an age of such deep-rooted virtual society and youth’s demand for instant-gratification, I’m not sure that there’s such a being in existence.  While I have no doubt that pure souls from family-friendly atmospheres exist, I doubt they play Warhammer 40k or spend their weekends around sweaty beefcakes at “I used to LARP, but downgraded to tabletop gaming instead” meetings.

I digress.

Part One:  The Internet is Full of People with Bad Advice:

As I cruise around the internet from time to time, seeing what people are asking about and what advice is being given (and this applies to all armies, not just Dark Eldar), I consistently see two things that irritate the balls right out of my scrotum. 

The first is that those looking for help submit an ill-conceived set of parameters in which help must be given.  Several broad examples:

Example #1: I’m trying to make my army more competitive, but I’m not taking out these reaver jetbikes or Baron Sliscus.
Dash says:  If you want to make your army more competitive, don’t set conditions on what you’re willing to do.  Or, ask for two things – the first being some good competitive builds, the second being competitive builds utilizing parts of what you’re looking for.  They may be different answers, but if you’re asking for help building a competitive list and mandate that your 18 reaver jetbikes stay in it, then get your ass handed to you and wonder why you got such bad advice on a “competitive” list, it’s because your artificially imposed restrictions made the only advice you were capable of receiving bad advice.

Example #2:  I’m not too competitive, please help me with my army.
Dash says:  What?  I’ve never understood this one.  If you’re not competitive, then build whatever the hell you want.  Build an army that looks pretty, or fits your fluffy backstory, or has a theme, or consists of the models and wargear that you actually have.  This is a vague, poorly worded request, and deserves to never be repeated.  Unfortunately, I see this one more than any other.  What help do you want if you’re not too competitive?  Either you’re having trouble winning against something and *DO* care, and want to change it – in which case you’re competitive, or you don’t care if you win or not, in which case changing your army serves no point and you should continue to run whatever you want.  There are only three roads to take here:
1.        I want to beat face with Dark Eldar, what are some good, competitive ideas for army lists at XXXX points?
2.       I’m losing against XXXX army with my YYYY List and don’t like it – what could I possibly change to improve my chances?
3.       I win/lose as I do with the army I use, but since I’m not competitive, I’m not going to ask for help with my army list since I can use whatever I damn well like.

There’s no middle ground in there for “Help me with my army, but I don’t want it to be *too* competitive, or too hard.  Then make whatever you want!  You don’t need help with that.

The second irritable factor is the opposite side of the coin:  People who give advice that have no business doing so.  So once again, in my competitively flavored opinion, there are two groups of people that should be giving advice about building or using an army.

Group #1:  Players from that codex that have significant experience AND SUCCESS with that codex against a wide variety of opponents in a wide variety of situations.

Group #2:  Players who frequently play against that codex, who can chime in with things that scare the poop out of them to see across the table.  For example, a Black Templar player having trouble beating Dark Eldar asks for advice on building a list.  While I don’t play Black Templar, I’d feel safe chiming in that I play Dark Eldar, and the one thing I NEVER want to see across the table from me is triple land raiders, all with blessed hull.

Group #3:  There is a third group; a mystical gathering of players who are so attuned to their inner nerd that they can zoom to the core of what will make a competitive army out of a codex not even released yet.  Hulksmash is one of those players.  I am not one of those players.  However, this group of people is so small that they’re not even really a relevant factor.

If you don’t fit into one of those two categories….you should stop polluting the internet with your white noise. 

Part Two:  No!!!  Your Reaver Jetbikes are NOT made out of win.

Reaver Jetbikes are the most common discussion point that I see.  This is usually in the form of “I <3 my Reaver Jetbikes, and they’re an integral part of my list,” but too often are unfortunately suggested to hapless advice seekers as a good addition to their list. 

Once upon a time, in an ancient text of forgotten history (the old DE codex), Reaver Jetbikes could take two special weapons per three bikes, were cheaper, could take three bikes in a unit, and had better armour saves.  And even then, you never saw them being fielded by Dark Eldar players for one important reason:  Anything that they can do, something else can do better, cheaper, more efficiently, or a combination of those things.  They had a limited *potential* role in bigger games….we’re talking 2,000+ where you’ve already filled out your entire Force Organization chart except for Fast Attack, and need to add points.  And then they were used as either screening / attempted cover saves, and/or flanking runners trying to get up the field to try killing a vehicle and being an annoyance before getting smeared off the board.

Today’s Reaver Jetbikes are much different.  Now, they’re prettier!  And more costly.  And you have to take MORE of them to get the same number of special weapons.  They have some fancy wargear options now, but no matter what you equip them with, or how costly you make them, they still serve the same purpose:  Screening/cover unit that will run up the board trying to kill a vehicle before getting smeared off the board.  The one difference is that now they can fly over an infantry unit and potentially do damage, and can zoom further!  *cheers*  Hardly.  In reality it comes down to a couple of problems.

1.       No Alpha-Strike.  A 12” move with an 18” blaster or 9/18” lance isn’t going to get you much in the first turn.  In fact, if you’re not playing a monkey pushing units at random, it’s going to get you nothing at all.  Nor will a 36” flat out get you much against anything except aforementioned monkey.  In Dawn of War, you’ve got nothing.  In pitched battle, any decent player isn’t going to leave a large enough footprint behind their unit deployment for you to fit in your Reaver Jetbike squad.  And in Spearhead….well, this is the one deployment that could let you zoom forward 36” over an infantry unit and piss acid over their heads on your way by.  I’m not going to get in depth about the likelihood of a non-embarked infantry unit deploying without a rearguard blocking it’s rear footprint, but let me just say that a potential use against a small segment of armies in one of several deployment types is not reason to take a unit.

2.       No survivability.  Dropping the RJB armour save from 4+ to 5+ made a bad unit worse.  Regular flamers are STR4 AP5.   It used to be that you could at least take an armour save during a turbo-boost when you got up close and personal.  But no more.  Flamers and combi-flamers of Imperial and Xenos design are common, and jumping them forward to get close and personal with something is asking for trouble.  They cost as much as a space marine, but have a 5+ instead of a 3+.  Do you REALLY want to get them into close combat?

3.       They don’t integrate into army lists.  So you’re running a foot-slogging WWP army.  Are your bikes going to zoom out and suicide themselves in a waste of points?  Are they going to hang back cautiously looking for an opportune moment and hope to survive like a waste of points?  Now you’re playing my Darklight Storm, or a variant of a venom-heavy army.  Venoms scooting up 12” and unleashing a huge alpha-strike.  Reavers do what?  Scoot up 36” and do nothing?  Hang back and do nothing?  Wait for an opportunity later?

4.       Mixed Target Priority:  The best example I can give is DE against DE.  I played against Chris Carlisle at the Alamo GT against his own Dark Eldar.  We both had mechanized Dark Eldar with a single non-mechanized unit – mine was a beast squad with Baron Sathonyx, his was his 9 man reaver jetbike squad.  Both of us are providing a non-mechanized unit for anti-infantry weapons to target – in both of our cases, that’s splinter cannons and splinter rifles.  The difference between us:  My dudes have a bunch of 5 wound models with 3+ cover saves sitting still.  His are 1 wound models with 5+ armour saves sitting still.  While I’m providing a target for blast weapons and anti-infantry munitions, they can live through it between a mixture of 2++, 4++, 5+/FNP, and multi-wound 3+ cover.  Reavers have none of that benefit.  We take the field against each other, and I don’t have to worry about killing a vehicle to put my splinter cannons to work, they just spend a turn wiping the reavers off the board.  Heavy Bolters and Multi-lasers would much rather be firing at reaver jetbikes than venoms, ravagers, and raiders.  ‘

That about sums it up.  Reaver Jetbikes were never particularly good, and they’re worse now.  However, people keep trumpeting their awesomeness because they’ve had personal success with them against previously mentioned monkey enthusiasts. 

It comes down to this:   Exactly what can Reaver Jetbikes do that something else isn’t BETTER at?  By the time you get through that list of things, your force organization chart is filled out, and you still haven’t included RJBs.  Now you’re at 2,000 points, meaning the only time you have room for RJBs in a decent list is ‘Ard Boyz, where you shouldn’t be looking for FoC fillers anyway. 

Part Three:  DE are a Sniper Army, aka “I Don’t Play DE, But I Love To Armchair General Noobs”

 Yep, Stelek – General Armchair himself.  I suspect that other advocates of this position are players who play long-range armies, or have switched to Dark Eldar from something like Razorfang /Mech IG and haven’t learned to adapt their gameplay to an army that is suited for a completely different style of play.  Dark Eldar have a single weapon (Dark Lance) in the entire army suited to long-ranged “Sit back and snipe.”  I don’t include Splinter Cannons in this assessment because their use requires targets to shoot at, which generally means cracking open transports – a task that three ravagers aren’t numerous enough to accomplish on their own.

You can add raiders to the list of sniper vehicles….flesh out all your troop choices and elites with raiders, and then you have 12 vehicles with lances!  Even this isn’t sufficient to take an enemy mechanized army to task, and it comes down to which side of Quality vs. Quantity you fall on.   Orks can put out a lot of STR7 low BS shots.  IG can put out a lot of high strength medium BS shots.  Space Marines can put out a lot of medium strength high BS shots, or a reasonable amount of high strength, high BS shots. 

Dark Eldar don’t fit into that paradigm.  Dark Lances are neither high quality or high volume – they’re middling.  They have neither quality nor quantity; they have speed.   They have the unique ability to apply middling force in concentration anywhere on the battlefield.  They have the ability to break and neutralize a piece of the enemy army, and then either counter the counter, avoid the counter, or break the counter.  5+ saves and AV10 open-topped vehicles don’t survive a  cross-board firefight unless it’s against an assault army that can’t fight across the length of the battlefield.  You can’t replace a longfang pack in cover with a kabalite warrior squad with a Dark Lance and a supporting raider, use them the same, and expect the same results.   

If anything, the long-range exchange in the first turn with Dark Eldar exists solely to create and expose weakness for the rest of the army.  It’s why I advocate a no-holds-barred approach with Dark Eldar.  Every gun – blaster, lance, splinter rifle, splinter cannon, and everything else – should be applied as soon as possible.  Thus, alpha-strike.  Dark Eldar don’t have the survivability to fight an attrition war, but they do have the ability to alpha-strike an enemy and then get away again.  If a chimera scoots ahead to disembark a flamer squad, the IG player knows that their flamer squad is dead.  They’re suiciding them to gain a greater benefit than the loss.  Meanwhile, the rest of the IG army is still hammering away at a distance.  If a Dark Eldar Venom scoots ahead to disembark warriors or trueborn, the rest of the flipping army is doing the same thing next to it – making sure that such devastating firepower gets unloaded on the enemy that there’s not enough local presence to make the move suicidal.

To reiterate:  Quality vs. Quantity doesn’t apply to Dark Eldar.  Don’t try making it fit.

Part Four:  Venom Spam Doesn’t Work

 I’m sure you’ve seen someone bashing venom spam yourself.  Let me first throw a generalized “armies work based on the general fielding them, not the units in the list” caveat out there before I go to work.  Detractors of my Darklight Storm and similar army builds point to the middling anti-tank capability, the AV10 open-topped vehicles, and the fact that venoms don’t have anti-tank capability themselves.  I agree on all points.  Every army has weaknesses though, and if you list weaknesses without contemplating how to offset those weaknesses, every army looks weak.  Compare these statements in a vacuum.

-Orks outnumber Space Marines 3:1.
-Tau are no match for any army in close combat.
-Chimeras are AV10 on the sides and rear, and passengers all get hit on a 3+ when it explodes.

Yes!  Those are all true statements as well, and just like Dark Eldar, every army offsets those “weaknesses” by shoring them up.  A venom heavy army works despite these weaknesses because they are offset by strengths.  AV10 and open-topped….offset by a permanent 5++ save and the ability to move fast and…be open-topped for disembarkation purposes.  No anti-tank on a venom….offset by the fact that a venom can pack a unit with some potent anti-tank firepower.  And all these units are cheap – none can master MSU like Dark Eldar can.  A venom-based army *does* work, if the general using them is willing to shift away from the paradigm of a space marine player.   It’s no surprise that a space marine player would look at a Dark Eldar army and say, “Can’t win an attrition war, not competitive.”

Part Five:  Rushing the Middle Is Wrong!

This advocacy is again primarily squawked by Stelek – even straight to me, blithely after getting beaten down by it.  I’ve said this before, and here it is again.  If my enemy knows exactly what I’m going to do, can anticipate my every move, and I follow their expectations TO THE LETTER….and they still can’t beat me, then I’m doing it right. 

Dark Eldar pulling a middle-rushing alpha-strike works.  In part because of Part 4, and also because of part three.  Speed, and the focused application of firepower.  I let my battle reports show the intricacies of doing so.


Part Six:  Razorwing Fights are HAWT!! OMG!!!

Hearkening back to my first and second points, I understand that there is great physical appeal to the model.  It’s sleek, it’s cool, it looks nice.  I see a lot of armies asking for input, where their heavy support slots are two ravagers and a Razorwing Fighter.  I’ve even seen a ridiculous and extremely lengthy argument for why the Implosion Missiles are better anti-tank and alpha-strike than another dark lance.  And most of the folks won’t budge on their razorwing fighter. 

In my competitively-flavored opinion, Dark Eldar don’t have enough anti-tank.  We have middling anti-tank that isn’t particularly scary.  I suspect that our anti-tank abilities will be more than sufficient in sixth edition if the rumors about vehicle passengers are true and it tilts a bit back towards an earlier edition (before my time) as people start shifting into infantry-heavier armies.  Then again ,when GW can sell a single vehicle for $50-$90, I’m not sure that they would consider such a move.  But my position is this:  Every Razorwing on the table is a Ravager not on the table…to your detriment.  Yes, implosion missiles are cool, but they’re one shot, and no dark elder army needs help with anti-infantry.  Between wyches, poisoned shooting, and beasts, the anti-infantry element is well under control.

Personally, I pack as much anti-tank into my army as I can, and it STILL doesn’t feel like enough.  The only thing I could do differently would be to give up my venoms and buy raiders, and sacrifice my beasts to pay the difference, leaving Baron Sathonyx homeless.  And I could swap out my 5 man warrior with a blaster units for 10 man warrior units with a stationary lance – also not a good idea, not in this day and age of zipping onto objectives.  And either one of those would drastically alter the army I’m fielding – which would be deadly.  All that anti-infantry firepower serves as a bastion against Space Wolves having their way with me, Monstrous Creatures not quaking in fear, Orks in general (and Lootas in particular)….it’s a necessary part of the army.

Part Seven:  All the rest!

This is the part where I should probably talk about the different kinds of DE armies that are worth fielding competitively, how they differ….except that I’ve already done that in my “Beating Face with DE” guide, and it doesn’t really need to be rehashed.  I just wanted to cover down on some annoyances and myths that I disagree with.

Thanks for reading!  If you have any that I missed, feel free to contribute.  And as always, clicky clicky on those ads!
 

Comments (41)

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Dash,

I got second at ardz boys and didn't win an army but got the battleforce, and have started building my DE list that is quite different to what I see with you and Xaereth (the only DE player to ever beat me). I hear what you say and am taking the challenge to build and play competitively with DE. It is hard for me to change my mindset from MEQ to DE, but I see some great possibilities with the DE force.

I need to read your ,“Beating Face with DE” guide,"

Spaguatyrine
What do Reaver Jetbikes do better than anything else in the DE list? Bring Heat Lances, for one, with the mobility to apply them. S6 melta is more reliable in blowing up vehicles than S8 AP2 lances. They can give cover to vehicles like Venoms and Raiders because they're big enough and mounted high enough. They're Wych units, so benefit from Combat Drugs, which is useful if you're bringing say Duke Sliscus, and somewhat useful in general. They can hold their own in combat if need be, though not very well and not for long. Causing hits while passing over units is a bonus that can be used if it happens to arise, but it's not going to be devastating in any case.

Not always awesome, but definitely worthy of inclusion in a list rather than dismissed as a "bad" unit regardless.
7 replies · active 702 weeks ago
Deadshane's avatar

Deadshane · 704 weeks ago

So how again can I make my list uber-competetive with max mandrakes and reavers? And when I say max mandrakes I mean no Baron and instead using the Decapitator.... ;D
2 replies · active 704 weeks ago
Dash-
As a fellow DE player, well ive only been playing them for about 4 months now but ive played them way back in the day with the old book I do agree with a lot of your points. Although i have had some mild success with the jetbikes they have been replaced for tournament games and only come out for fun games.

I live right by hulksmash and we have been in a few tournaments together, although i have only been able to play him twice it has always been great games. In our most recent game he was playing his logan wing and i was playing the DE. looking at his list and all the missile launchers is rather daunting even more daunting when he is going first and there is almost no terrain on the board.
The one unit that really saved me was my unit of 19 hellions and the barron joined. This to me is an auto include in all of my tournament lists. Its a massive unit that i farm two pain tokens to first turn depending if im going first or second and what im facing, it gives me cover for my 6 venoms, raiders, and ravengers, and has amazing charge range. Now in my game against hulksmash the cover alone saved me i rolled amazingly well and passed most all of my cover saves and only lost a few hellions. The hellions move up and provide cover for another turn before they assault. When they did assault the do a massive charge going into two units of long fangs and some troop squads taking most of them out and then escorted them off the board next turn. I then charged his massive terminator squad with them and they all died.....dumb choice really but i figured I would take a few down with me. The game ended with me winning taking two of three objectives.
The third round was against SW with 3 long fang packs and TWC with a TW lord, rune priest, grey hunters, and a scout squad. The hellions in this game won me the game hands down, with combined shooting from the hellions and the venoms i killed all the TWC first turn and the TW lord charged them and the hellions killed the lord and ran forward. on my turn they moved up and ran to get into charge range of the long fangs. I shot at some rhinos and blew a few up. The hellions charged all three long fang packs and wiped out two squads and almost the third, the next round they wiped out the last squad and then went to go take out some grey hunters. In my experience playing against Grey hunters the banner is very annoying as it takes away a lot of hitting power away from the squad. Best answer is to thin out the squad with PSN weapons then charge in and the hellions ended up taking out that squad out too. By the bottom of turn 3 the only unit he had left was a squad of scouts that have yet to come onto the board. Most everything was killed by the hellions.
Although hulksmash won the overall tournament beating me out by two points as my army was not painted ill take a sweet victory in my mind.
The most recent use of hellions was ard boyz, now granted DE do not scale well in higher points but i did not want to run my SW so i just made up a list and ran with it. I knew guard and grey knights were going to be really annoying in the second mission so i just hoped not to play one. My unit of hellions really shined in the tournament taking on Sisters of battle first round that was flamer heavy and worked them over.
Second round was against SW, got lucky not getting paired against guard or GK. The hellions took out a TWC lord, three squads of Grey hunters after they were wittled down, a long fang pack, and Logan Grimnar. Good game
In the third game the Hellions were pure gold against a guard army taking out over 1500pts by themselves and claiming 3 objectives at the end of the game to give me the win to take first. They took out 3 chimera, and two vendetas, as the guard army was not a heavy mech list.
Rather long explanation about hellions but these are just some of my experiences with them. they are a great unit for getting into the back lines really fast to take out the devastators and not too bad at taking out most tanks if you farm them two pain tokens first round which might seem like a waste of points put its rather cheep. Great harassing unit and they give cover to all of your vehicles which at some tournaments is necessary when you fight on planet bowling ball. speed is DE friend and hellions have all sorts of it. Granted they can’t get Haywire grenades str 5 on charge with that many attacks will take out most tanks. Hellions win me most all of my games, and they are a lot of fun to use.

Long post but just some food for thought on the hellions, if you get use to playing them they are a great unit and worth their weight in gold in my opinion.
spyguyyoda's avatar

spyguyyoda · 704 weeks ago

One thing I have noticed is that the Fast Attack slot is extremely polarizing. The people who like their reavers REALLY like them...Hellions fans REALLY like them (the evidence precedes me)...Beastpack fans REALLY like them. Scourges kind of get left out in the cold most of the time (probably due to price), but I LOVE my scourges*. I do intend to run them differently based on my experience at NOVA, but I'm still going to run them.

In general, I can't find much to fault with what you have to say here. I tried the "two DL trueborn squad" approach at NOVA, but that was based on two things: the advice of a REALLY good player (I know Dash lost to him at NOVA), and the fact I was out of Blasters. It was a good learning esperience; they are surprisingly resilient when sitting in cover with a Haemonculus pain token, and the can do some damage. Overall, I much prefer the 4 Blaster Trueborn Venom.

*It's nice to still have an armor save vs the Holy Bolter.
I love your post and share your views for the most part, especially the part about stelek.

Keep preaching :-)
The more stuff I read about Dark Eldar, the more I like it. I've been playing my own list, a version of a list by a fellow WC member, and I've toyed with Dash's list in Army Builder. ( I don't really like the beast/Baron combo...it just chafes at me the way they hinder each other's movement)

I've also read Stelek's post on "Balanced Dark Eldar" http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/09/build-req...
Now, I'm as much for bashing Stelek as the next guy, but all drama aside, much of what the article has to say strikes me as well thought out and logical. Dash has some real good success with his army, but I don't see why other DE players cannot have the same success by incorperating other ideas in their lists/tactics....and I really like the ideas posted in the post by Stelek....(again, due to ignoring any egomania encountered within)
1 reply · active 704 weeks ago
I cannot find much wrong theory-wise with his post, nor with Dash's ideas. I'd like to see some constructive comments by dash on why 'this or that' specifically doesnt work with Stelek's theory. I like that sort of banter back and forth because I think it makes for good exposure to all possible smart tactics/list choices.

Some of the ideas in the article:

Much attention to dual-purpose...moreso than in Dash's list.
More respect given to anti-tank? In particular ranged. Also an attempt at bringing some reliable melta.
Some units, that wouldn't normally be, actually ARE durable.
Less dependant on first turn.

I'm not saying that these ideas are better than Dash's...please don't think I'm saying that. Dash's record speaks for itself. I'm just wondering if this could also be a direction to take as the two guys philosophies are obviously quite different. Perhaps a list can benefit from paying attention to both of these players?
Hey dash, been following you since you started posting advice to ork players on dakka. The one thing I would really like to know his how you deal with 5 psyDreads at 2k. I was listening to 11th co and one of the fellows on there said that he does not see how DE can handle that list.
2 replies · active 704 weeks ago
I too have been wondering about how DE can handle this....

Especially how they would handle multiple VEN dreads. Those things are massive threats. the only way I've been able to handle them so far (after getting frustrated with them by shooting) is to throw a wych unit at them just to tie them up and keep them from shooting.

Hopefully you've got some Shardnet/Impalers and several dreads are deployed close enough for a multicharge. This is an easy enough way to "handle" them but it's a farcry from solving the problem of multiple psyker dreads that you cannot keep from popping fortitude everytime you shoot them.

GK can definatly present some problems for DE armies if they're built with DE in mind.
Reavers aren't the end-all, be-all of the codex, but I think they're a worthwhile unit. The fact that they compete with Beastmasters (and many armies will want both) is unfortunate, but such is life.

With regards to your points about them:

1. Entirely true. The flyby hits are not really something you should expect to be using a lot, as they usually are too awkward to get off on a good target and/or leave you in a bad position. Consider them a free bonus when you are otherwise zooming and have a unit in range, not something you're going out of your way to do.

2. 5+ armor is usually irrelevant because of 4+ cover. With the JSJ move and Skilled Rider, you should be able to consistently place Reavers in cover without much problem; yes, flamers will eat you, but flamers eat everything in the book and your ass shouldn't be 8" away from anything anyways.

3. I'm not sure why you think this is a problem. WWP armies use them as AT that can appear from the Portal and shoot something effectively that turn, mech armies use them as something else that can keep up with the rest of their forces.

4. They definitely are easier targets than many things in the army, but I don't think they're as obvious as you make them out to be. If they've earned a pain token, they're actually pretty tough (4+ cover + FNP is not easy to break) and any shots which punch FNP could easily be wrecking DE transports. Bolters and such can obviously be aimed at them, but you can often simply outrange those, and once you have FNP they become laughable.

Reavers are one of the few AP1 platforms in the codex, and for that alone I think they are worth considering. Not auto-including, not spamming, but at least worth looking at. They are mobile and have both anti-infantry (by which I mean their guns) and anti-tank uses and can even tie up weaker units (like Guardsmen/Tau) in close combat.

Otherwise a good article, though. DE are a badly misunderstood army.
newtoncain's avatar

newtoncain · 704 weeks ago

Not many people use knight shields, but they help alot vs guard/GK. 24" is now 18", 36" is now 30", 48" is now 42", Meltas now have a 6" range. Most usefull T1 when you go second.

Just food for thought.
4 replies · active 704 weeks ago
I really enjoyed this read Dash, well done.
I'm building a DE venom spam army just for the mobility of it. Just to see what that's like....this was an eye opener, I was leaning into the 'Don't you wish your flyer was HAWT like my Razorwing' camp ( and still might ) but I appreciate the qualified perspective. Thank you
2 replies · active 704 weeks ago
Go beastpacks!

BTW, nice writeup.
You have never even won a GT with this army. You designed a rock list because that is all you know how to play. Venom spam is okay but not awesome at all.
1 reply · active 704 weeks ago
Good read dash! Well done. I really wanna fit beastpacks into my wych list... soooo impossible to find room tho :(
Hi Dash, been following your endeavors with interest.

I play in a small group with Orks(Foot or Mechd), BA, Tau, IG(Mech), Eldar(Mech). We've played 750p small battles friendly. Now we are moving upto 1k points and below is what I've come up with so far. Now I know jetfighter would theoretically have to go but my thought was that I couldn't really squeeze in more venoms or enhance my whyches to make up for the difference a jetfighter might give(?) I also enjoyed 36" supersonic contesting move at the end of an earlier game which raised a few eyebrows. Don't be gentle! :D

4x5 warrs, venom, 2SC
8 wyches, with Haemo in raider
2x ravager
1x razorwing with 1SC and 1xnecrotoxin(pinning), 3xmonoscythe

Models in Army: 37
Total Army Cost: 1000

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