Tuesday, September 20, 2011

I Pity the Guard! - Thoughts on Guard in the Current Environment


Well I said I was working on a few random articles and this is one of them. I’ve recently closed out the summer “season” of tournaments which included 3 GT’s that totaled 27 games, several RTT’s, and the Ard Boy Prelims/Semi’s. Oddly I’m not burned out on the hobby. I will say I’ve been looking at Fantasy as a way to change things up a bit but that’s beside the point.


The point of this article is that I’m starting to feel a little pity in my heart for the Guard players out there. Bear in mind this is purely off what I’ve run into and seen in events in Virginia, Minnesota, Nebraska, and Texas as well as lists I see being written up online on blogs and several forum communities. Some guard players still do very well for themselves but in general also aren’t posting their lists and aren’t taking the top spots in tournaments anymore(I said in general Mike since you’ve got 2 events coming upJ). Why aren’t we seeing IG in the top spots anymore? Why has their representation dropped (not back to pre-5th ed. codex levels but pretty close) so much?


We’ll start with the second questions first. Some have jumped ship for the newest, shinniest thing which does happen. Some have probably become bored with running 12 AV12 Hulls, Vets, and maybe an AV14 here and there. I’m sure some players have shifted because their win totals have dropped rather significantly as the newer books came out. And, probably a fairly significant one, the amount of shit that people were catching for running mech IG. Honestly there are probably a lot of reasons why their representation has dropped but the above are the reasons that stand out the most to me.

Now I’m guilty of thinking Guard could get boring to play pure Mech after a while but then most armies get boring to me after a while. I’ll also admit to being part of that group that gets tired of seeing the same list from the IG players over and over again. But I think the reason I get so annoyed at seeing the same lists over and over again for IG more than any other army is that I feel like they aren’t adapting. More than any other 5th edition books most IG players seem to be locked into a single template of a list and it makes me crazy. I nearly crapped myself (in surprise, not fear) when I saw some Ratlings at Ard Boyz but I was happy to see something a little different. And it did have a purpose in his army. Kudos to him for running something slightly outside the norm.

Now I’m not saying that you have to run subpar units just for diversities sake. I’m saying that as the tournament environment shifts based on new books coming out some units utility shifts and they are no longer subpar. But that does mean you’ll have to look outside the bog standard units and combo’s.

About 3 months ago I wrote up an article on Ogryns that included their utility and how I thought they fit into the current game environment. I feel it’s even more applicable now than it was then. It can be found here: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2011/06/ogryns-shunned-abused.html

That’s just one of the underused units in the codex that I think has shifted from subpar (if they ever were) to a solid choice. What are the others you ask? Well there is the Colossus, the Hellhound, and Armored Sentinels for a start. Granted I’d throw Stormtroopers in there for me as well but since I want people to keep reading past this point I’ll leave them out for now J.

So why these units? They all provide something that the IG codex lacks in its standard form. I know most people see IG as an army with a massive amount of shooting. But what it really has is a solid amount of quality shooting. What this means though is that its more at risk against abnormal rolling that it needs to be. How many times has a Long Fang squad lived through far more shots that it should have because a dude made 4/5 cover saves? How about units w/cover and FnP? Or units of DE with Stealth and/or FnP? How often have you, as an IG player complained about Long Fangs or other ranged support hiding in cover across the board? Let’s look at each:

Colossus

This is a tank that fires a large blast St6 AP3 no cover save shot. Now we’ve all seen the way that Long Fangs generally deploy, especially on tables with LoS blocking terrain. So why aren’t these units used? In all honesty I have no idea. The ability to pop a tank and then wipe out every model inside seems a little silly not to take. It does have a minimum range but that’s not that likely to be an issue honestly. What you have here is the ability to use a quality shot to eliminate something you have trouble with as an IG player.

Hellhound

This is more for the rise in the Dark Eldar I’m seeing around. It negates armor, FnP, and cover saves against anything that isn’t an MEQ and it does it with a range of 24” since its fast. It’s not too shabby for clearing out scoring scouts or units that go to ground either. Another quality shot that saves you pooring tons of firepower into an opponent. A Hellhound does compete with a Vendetta but I feel that it serves enough of a purpose to include one in your list.

Armored Sentinels

This fills some of the same rolls as Ogryns can as a line blocker. This is a unit that you can throw into small squads that lack a powerfist and forget about them. It also adds some firepower support and can be used as mobile cover if you need it. And the fact that you can get 2 for the price of a normal dreadnought isn’t bad either. Is it on my own personal list? Nope, I’ll be using Ogryns. They are also harder to want to pick for a mech force vs. a Vendetta but it’s an option that people never seem to exercise.

And this is just the beginning. People complain about new books being more powerful regularly. People claim there is codex creep and that the newest and shiniest is the bestest. In previous editions like 3rd they probably had a bit of a point but in the Era of 5th I think it’s pretty dang balanced and that all 5th edition books are solid against each other (though Nids are a little more hampered in choice). I personally think most of this complaining stems from the inability to adapt to the changing gaming environment.

I encourage the IG players out there to take out their book, sit down, analyze where the holes in their list are, and start tweaking. Take dice out of it. Take going first out of it. Just sit down and honestly look at what you might be lacking and use the tools your codex has.

I hope this didn’t come off as elitist or Learn2Play since it’s not how I meant it. It just something I wanted to talk about since I might finally be getting my IG to a painted state in the near future and have really been diving deep get a list that works well in the current environment (right before Necrons make me change it again J). As always feel free to comment and provide your thoughts. I look forward to them.

Comments (21)

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very interesting points. i run guard almost exclusively, and have done for years, and i agree that there are no longer the obvious choices to make when building lists that there once were. i have also been using a hellhound for a fair while now. they are fantastic for all the reasons you state, but even more useful for blocking. as for your words on the Colossus, say no more, even i had forgotten about it to be honest. I'll be giving it a try next week!

some of my own points now. i still run mech guard, but I myself take a lot of utility in my veteran squads these days, preferring to use an autocannon AND 3 special weapons. this allows me to sit back and shoot, and then counter attack mid/late game, or move forward at an opportunity cost of only 10 points.

My favourite of the underrated units however, is stormtroopers. these guys have so much flexibility and i don't know why they are not more popular. a basic unit of 5 guys with 2 meltas that can scout or outflank in their chimera, or infiltrate, or deep strike reliably is a very useful tool. It is choices like these that allow you to mess with your opponent during deployment and afterwards in a way that no other unit in the codex allows.

I believe the book is still in the very top 'tier' (i use the word loosely) but as you say, requires a bit of adaption to use successfully.
One of the few disadvantages of Colossus is min range of 24. Most armies will close into that range after turn 2-3. I love the hellhound for both the range and having an improved heavy flamer. They are THE, counter assault unit for the IG. Funny thing is the IG codex is one of the rare army books that has alot of competition in the fast attack slots.
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
The min Range 24" isn't really that bad though. 1-2 shots easily pays for the tank and that doesn't include the impact on the rest of the game. I think for it's relatively light point cost it's one of the nastier pieces in the book.

And yeah, oddly IG's least competitive spot is the Elites, not Fast Attack like normal....weird :)
One tactic that was underutilized but I have seen it done to a great extent was using hellhounds as battering rams when shaken or stunned thanks to fast. The big debate has always been between the hellhound and the banewolf. The banewolf can move 12 inches and still drop 2 templates where as the hellhound drops 1 at 12. But the hellhound has S6 and range.
My buddy Six-Deucer employs these three units regularly in his 2,000 point guard list- to much success I might add. He and I started playing 40K about a year ago.
The Colossus has always interested me, but its stationary nature (plus lack of a model) has always put me off of it. Now that I'm thinking about it, though, it might perfectly pair with the mobile Guard that I've been running. Vets move up to threaten the opponent while the Colossi lob shells on their positions, forcing them to move forwards. Throw in a Manticore and you have some serious backfield firepower.

I may have to give Ogryn a try. I do have all of these Ogres lying around with nothing to do, after all...
Dashofpepper's avatar

Dashofpepper · 705 weeks ago

Are hellhounds scouting vehicles? If they are, that's particularly nasty. Still nasty if not...but there are levels.
1 reply · active 705 weeks ago
No, Hellhounds don't scout. They are just fast and so can move 12" and fire a flamer template 12" out.
It's interesting how the internet driven meta functions. You talked about how there is no codex creep, and that things are pretty balanced. From what I've seen, blogs/forums have a rolling curtain where a new codex comes out, they use it to beat the previous new codex that everyone is playing, and so on and so forth. Eventually, older armies or styles of a certain army get forgotten by the people that exclusively look to the net for their tactics/armies, and as a result they face an older codex and don't know what to do. It's like rock-paper-scissors, but everyone gets so focused on how to beat paper they forget about rock, until finally someone brings rock and throws people off.
newtoncain's avatar

newtoncain · 705 weeks ago

Thanks for the "Ratling " Kudoes.__I really like them, for 50pts you get 1/9 chance per ratling to get a rend, 1/18 to glance Armor 11. I run them in 5 rat groups, 2 wound to cause MC or just go to ground for 2+ cover.____Hellhound w/ HF is a must in the current meta per your DE statment. Works for hoards too.____I think IG has to stay Mech, GK PysBacks just auto kill HWTeams, Venoms just pour too much fire into them, never mind STR6 templates some armies have. Might have to try putting a HWT in someone elses Chimera.____As for Vets, I like even #s of Melta/Demo in a Chimera and PG/LC in a chimera. The PG/LC sits back an fires all day long. 3+ gets too close, rapid fire.____For Heavy I think every IG needs a Sqd of Hydra x 2 and then some arty (manticore/coll/griffon/medusa) and 1 Stock Russ Extcu (190pts) if you can afford it (3 x STR7 AP2 templates hurts 2+ armor.____For fast I'll stick with Vend x 2 +Hell. I 've tried sentinols and they just don't work for me.____Thanks gain for the 3rd round game @ the semi final Ard boys____
The Hellhound is a decent tank, but it has a fairly specific niche (killing light infantry) and takes away a slot from one of your prime units (Vendettas, or more occasionally Sentinels.) Being able to bolt on a Multimelta adds some nice duality, but it feels like a bit too specific of a rule when you already have S6+ and template weapons abounding.

The Colossus is a pretty brutal gun, but I think its mediocre accuracy and range limitations hurt it somewhat, along with the high price tag. Being still AV12 open-topped, it won't be hard to shut it down if the opponent decides to do so (and since it can't fire directly, it is by necessity a static platform.) I think it's a viable option, just one that you'll have to think carefully about using.

I still don't like Ogryns. I just don't think they really bring anything you need. Other units do the countercharge role better and they don't have a lot else going for them.

Armored Sentinels are an interesting choice, although they do suffer the same "competing with Vendettas" issue as Hellhounds. The ability to lock up squads of Marines is actually pretty decent, and even if there's a Fist in there it still needs 5s to penetrate you. However, AV10 on the sides, combined with a wide side facing, does limit its survivability a lot and they certainly aren't cheap. All in all, I think I'd rather have the utility of a Scout Sentinel instead most of the time.

IG have definitely been on the downtrend recently, though I can't really say why. They have the tools to deal with all of the new armies- indeed, they are well-posed to hammer DE and GK armies- but a lot of folks are still so caught up on "6x Meltavets in Chimeras" that I think the possibility for doing some neat stuff is ignored.
3 replies · active 705 weeks ago
It's a very boring army to play, and suffers from Cruddace sucking as a game designer.
You can't stray too far from the 'good' units, or you end up with a really, really bad collection of mostly useless things.

Oh, and no more allied inquisitors, so the army is really weak against deep strikes and psykers. You know, like it was intended all along. So much for guard being 'top tier' by their own merits.
I agree that the bog standard gunline guard is boring to play with and against. I disagree that about straying from the standard though. I think there is a lot of depth to the Guard book. and that most people are stuck in the rut from 2 years ago. The book is ridiculously solid and has all the tools you should need. Just most people don't use them which is sad.
I agree. The book has plenty of depth, and opportunity for flexibility as well.

I think part of the problem is that people decide, when an army comes out, that some units are good, and other units are bad, and then wait until their good units aren't winning them games anymore to switch to a new army. So you get that Rock-Paper-Scissors feeling that devolves into whining about under-powered lists, and over-powered new units, and so on.

The problem is that this style of play, of assuming that some units are good and some are bad means that players aren't often willing or able to adapt their play, since it's a matter of taking the right units rather than what you do with them.
I'm fine with guard being used less. I have a tough time with them, so the less I see them the better.

I would be happy if everyone moved to grey knights. Then I could just tailor my list for them.
spaguatyrine's avatar

spaguatyrine · 705 weeks ago

The space wolves codex ruined it for guard. I feel they were able to exploit the weeknesses of guard to a point where other armies have seen how to beat them. I haven't lost a game to guard in a long time with space wolves. The ability to take rhino's and rush the guard line while hitting the chimeras with longrange fire support and hitting side armor with a crossfire technique is a killer to guard. Since MSU has become the norm, and there are less expensive landraiders and heavy vehicles, the meltas of guard have become less effective as well.
2 replies · active 705 weeks ago
To a point I agree. But I think the real problem is the lack of adaptation. How much of your long ranged fire support would survive if your opponent brought Colossi? How about if guard properly anchored their line with non-AV10 side armor vehicles? What about if they had an actual counter assault unit to push you off their vehicle? Or fast vehicles they used to block off movement? Stagnation is the current problem with the guard, not the codex itself.
I agree with Hulksmash: there's a certain amount of adaptation needed here. Take the Rhino rush, for example. Guard have the ability to put out masses of ablative Infantry squads, which aren't used if people have invested in Veterans. Hitting the side armour of Chimeras doesn't work if they're flanked by Hellhounds or similar AV12 vehicles - Vendettas just don't mesh well to cover Chimeras from flanking attacks.

Likewise Guard can have Melta and Autocannons/Grenade Launchers (yes, Grenade Launchers, enough 24" S6 shots and Rhinos take notice).

Basically the Space Wolves dominated one Imperial Guard strategy, but instead of adapting, people moved on (or hung in there and played on a back foot).
Sure. And if you stay with your side arcs covered by other chimeras and hellhounds, then you either move in a wall or just stand still. Side armor 10 is too vulnerable to marines. I agree the colassus would be nasty if a marine army couldn't get close enough fast enough, but I am not sure it would begin an entirely new strategy for guard players. It is basically the manticore with lower strength and no cover saves, which works great against longfangs, etc.

And I am not worried about any counter assault unit that guard can put out... :)
They are playing other armies...whether people want variety, or they are distracted by the "shiny" of a new codex.

I have been preaching the benefits of many of these units you mention for a while; they are amazing.

The colossus is amazing for clearing backfield objectives of scoring units. This is especially true in the normal "auto tie" game of spearhead capture and control. True, a wise player will try to keep scoring units in reserves and try to deal with the colossus before they come out, but this is not feasible in every game. These things also make a mockery of tau (and de) assault move jumps into cover - a normally necessary survival strategy for them. Excellent unit.

Hellhound / Banewolf
What is not to love. The banewolf destroys everything from MC's to those pesky ASM units holding an objective. Not to mention if a DE player does not follow Dash's advice and brings reaver jetbikes ;)

A 12" template attack on a fast vehicle brings a tremendous amount of operational flexibility to any army..its mere presence on the field can affect the movements of a skilled player, or the demise of careless one. excellent units.

Two of the best guard players in my area are still playing, they are just playing DE and SW...

thanks for the post!
Hey great article! I am little confused about how the Feel NO Pain works from a hellhound against Dark Eldar? The inferno cannon is AP 4 Str 6 but the fell no pain is negated only when it is faced with ap1 and ap2.

Thanks guys!

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