Friday, August 5, 2011

Dashofpepper Strategeries: On Changing Point Levels

One of the great things about co-authoring with Hulksmash is that we bring such different perspectives to the table on so many issues. This particular issue is something we’ve chatted about from time to time, and our opinions differ.

In short, if I pick an army…take Orks for example, my 1500, 1750, 1850, 2000, and 2500 lists all follow the same theme. I might even call them modular. If I want to bump from 1850 to 2000, I can add another unit of XXX. If I need to drop from 1850 to 1500, I can cut a unit of YYY. I play Battlewagon Orks led by Ghazghkull Thraka – and at every point level…that theme is readily apparent - a solid army core of my theme with modular additions and subtractions based on point level.

Hulksmash on the other hand subscribes to the theory that an army’s playstyle changes at point levels. Tyranids at 1500 are different than Tyranids at 2000. To some extent, I agree…my Necron theme works at 2,000 points – but I can’t keep the theme below 2,000 points, so I would have to change it. So I don’t play Necrons below 2,000 points. =p

In this monologue/discussion/article, I’m going to talk about the advantages of thematic, modular play.

Practice makes perfect. Anyone ever heard of that? Practicing with a Katana will make you a better swordsman and katana-user, but not an expert with a Celtic Greatsword. The same analogy applies to a pistol and an assault rifle. Or assault rifles of different caliber and make. More on this in a moment.

Hulksmash and I have argued about “stagnation” in 40k several times. He believes that my 40k career is stagnant because I don’t change my army lists – I don’t continually shift and evolve them, trying new things and am therefore stagnant. On the flip side, I believe that stagnation has nothing to do with your army list, but instead completely to do with your attitude and your gameplay – to me, stagnation is when you are stuck in a rut, unable to advance.

To tie these together, rather than continually shift my army around to try new things…I do all that testing up front, and evolve my army into a final form – tweaking it until I have it humming as well-tuned as I can get it. From there, I practice. And practice. And practice. I learn to use the tool I’ve created in every possible way, in every situation, against every any opponent possible. I’ve often said that the highest level of competitive 40k is determined by mistakes, who makes the fewest, and how well the mistakes made are exploited.

The “tuned” theme I refer to is meant to overcome the propensity for making mistakes through repetition. Playing 40k in many venues, with different codices can make you a good 40k player – but to be exceptionally competitive – you have to be intimately familiar with every detail of the list you’re putting on the table. And thus we return to my premise about the modular, thematic army. I play the same army, or theme within a codex at every point level.

‘Ard Boyz is coming up; 2500 points. After that, 1750 Nova Invitational is coming up. I’m playing Dark Eldar for both. I have never in my life played Dark Eldar at 2500 points. I haven’t played them at 1750 points in about two years, with a previous codex. I’m not concerned about practice though, because the theme that I use won’t change – only my modular installations will. For 2500 points, I’m going to have to either sub out warriors to add wyches, add reaver jetbikes, another beast squad, or expand an HQ. I haven’t looked at all my options yet. I honestly haven’t thought about any of it at all yet. For the 1750 Nova Invitational, my standard 2k army is going to simply drop a couple units to 1750.

No restructuring, no changing theme, no paradigm shift. To go back to the gun analogy…firing an assault rifle – an M16. Add an extended clip, laser sight, flashlight, suppressor, railgrips, retractable stock…and you’re still firing the same M16 that you’ve been practicing with. A little adjustment is in order to compensate for weight, kick, grip…but it fires like it has every other time you’ve tried. Remove accessories and you still have your trusty M16.

To summarize, that’s my style of play. I toyed around with scourges – came close to buying some. Put my old reavers on the table, played with hellions, and got a feel for my codex – all the while driving towards my original plan for my army. Hulksmash and I bounced ideas for my army back and forth, and when I found what I liked…I tested, and tested and mercilessly honed it, tweaked it, adjusted it, added units, removed units, changed wargear and sizes…until I had an army that I would put down in front of ANY opponent, in ANY mission, in ANY tournament.

And regardless of point level, I get to play the same army that I’ve tweaked and practiced with!

Comments (14)

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You do bring up some good points, but I don't think there are kinds of people who do just that. It really depends on what a person wants to do with there army. If you were to look at my Eldar, my 1500 is an extension of my 1000/1250, while my 2000 is an extension of my 1750. However, my 1500 and 1750 are completely different things, and it's the same thing with my 2000 and my 2500.

Aside from that, was this mainly just an article about how your higher points level lists are just expansion of the lower ones?(Not there's anything wrong with that)
Yes, it is - and to illustrate the benefits of working from that premise.
I find my armies are more plug and play. I tend to equipe and kit units the same, and I choose my favorite ones first. My armies tend to look very similar no matter what point level. I like to always build up though.

I will say different armies do play better/worse at different levels though. My sister's of battle are pretty mean (for now, we'll see after the WD's) at 1500. At 1850 and 2000 other armies have more tools to handle them better. I think it is a flaw of older codexes.
oddly enough, i think your most interesting point here is one about the benefits of practicing with a single army. i have played an almost identicle guard army for about a year and a half now, and people ask me if i get bored. the answer is no, because even now, i learn new things about how to play it better, and how to react to new situations. every time i think i cant get any better with it, i come up against a new challenge. while some people may want to be good at everything, i'd rather be exceptional at one thing.
Reavers? Why Reavers? I haven't heard much about them, less that is good, and I would have expected more Wyches.
While I agree that practice makes perfect I think we have completely definitions for our "katanas". You see your "weapon" as the specific army list. I see my "weapon" as the entire codex. Thi is where our opinions differ.

I personally think that practicing with your entire codex and different configurations means you'll make less mistakes over time but at the same time it allows your "weapon" to still remain viable. Take the orks you used as an example. You've pretty much shelved them because you don't think they can compete with the most recent books. That's because you're build can't compete, not the codex. But based on the modular style of play and the locking in of a "theme" you can't and won't play the army any more. This doesn't really happen in the way that I approach army building and practice as I can adjust my lists that works with every change to the game.
As a sidenote I also find it's better for my ability to have good games in my local scene that I change my list. Taking the same army to every single event is only boring for me, it's boring for my opponents as well. It also becomes pointless for me to play my super tuned lists because I know those lists run over the majority of local players. So how do I hone my skills when nothing will give my tuned army a challenge? I use similar lists with new and different units to practice and hone my skills since it'll require more thinking and greater flexibility on my part to make it work.

That's why I've called your approach stagnant. It doesn't grow after a time which to me is limiting your growth.

To each their own though, if it's how you enjoy the hobby then no worries. I just couldn't do it that way. Just my two cents :)
2 replies · active 709 weeks ago
If you want to get hardcore bring a list with no duplicate units.
This is the main reason I have multiple lists:

"Taking the same army to every single event is only boring for me, it's boring for my opponents as well. It also becomes pointless for me to play my super tuned lists because I know those lists run over the majority of local players. "

If I see a newer player, I usually either change my style, do a team game, or take a list with a IC, unit, etc. something I never usually play.

Even in the NJ/NY area, many people play the same armies each time.
Hulksmash, I didn't shelve my Orks because they couldn't compete - I had shelved them because I discovered Dark Eldar. I broke them out for the Nova Open because I didn't think Dark Eldar could compete. Outside of the Nova Open, I've been playing mostly Dark Eldar for two years now.

Grog: Reavers....going from 2k to 2500 with DE is difficult. My entire force org is filled out and balanced, and I have two fast attack spots open. That's it.

Back to Hulksmash....I don't think you're disagreeing with me. Playing basketball often will make you a better basketball player. But if you want to be a better dribbler, you need to practice dribbling, not just play basketball. Shoot free throws over and over to improve on them, not just play more basketball.

By the same token...playing 40k = playing basketball. It is definitely important to be well-versed with the entire capabilities of your codex. And all codices. But when I put an army down against another player, we're going to have a free-throwing contest, not a basketball game. And I practice my free-throws until I can shoot them in my sleep.

Figuratively of course.
1 reply · active 712 weeks ago
We disagree on the definition of the weapon, not on practice makes perfect. You see the weapon as a single list while I see it as a Codex as a whole.

Using the basketball analogy I don't think of it as a free throw contest. Free throws are an aspect of Basketball much like movement is a part of 40k. Your definitions are just narrower than mine is all. And you don't get bored like I do playing the exact same thing over and over again :)
Different people have different talents and thus the 'most effective' playstyle should be different for each people, mirroring the aspects where their individual talents lie. Someone just might have a really good eye for picking out units that work together from the codex and intuitively figuring out tactics for these combinations. His individual talents come to better use in playing several different types of lists within the same codex, simply because he can intuitively pick out the best punch-to-points rations within each point-value 'bracket' so to say.

Another person might not have the eye for picking out unit combinations and their synchrony fast, but he might have the ability to judge distances and visualize the table environment. He will probably develop faster and better if he is using a thematically similar lists were the synchrony and relationship between his different units stay the same.
Hey Dash have you included your games from Wargamescon in your 2011 GT record? I think it is awesome that you guys let everyone know how many games you have won and lost. That is really cool!
spyguyyoda's avatar

spyguyyoda · 711 weeks ago

I tend to agree with Hulksmash about the whole Codex being the weapon. At the same time, I find myself most often in the same boat as inquisitor_dunn in that I have certain units I prefer, and I pretty much always start with them. Everything else falls in around them.

At any rate, I'll be looking for you guys at NOVA, but I won't have my army painted on time, so it looks like I'll just be spectating/open gaming.

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