Friday, August 12, 2011

'Ard Boyz for Dashofpepper

Hey folks!

Tomorrow is going to be an interesting experience. As you probably know, I'm a big fan of efficiency. I'm a systems engineer, process engineer, industrial engineer...different parts of the military and civilian world call it different things, but it all boils down to efficiency. That includes my hobby. All my hobbies in fact. When I'm at home, I'm often playing 2-3 video games at the same time on my computer (Flash games at Kongregate type of thing), while watching a movie with my wife.

But that's tangential to this: Hulksmash and I don't always agree on everything, but we have always agreed that Dark Eldar don't belong in 2,500 points. And yet...here I sit with a 2,500 point Dark Eldar list in hand, regretting having made it, and knowing that I'm going to be miserable playing it because of it's inherent inefficiencies, but with no better alternative. I had four choices:

1. Don't go to 'Ard Boyz....well, I told my friend I would go, and I'd like to win a 2500 point army of my choice. I've got a friend I'm trying to get into 40k, and would love to be like, "Boom: Here's an army."

2. Play Necrons: My monoliths aren't painted (I know, no painting requirements), but more importantly are in various stages of disassembly and repair FOR the painting work. Without the monoliths, the army doesn't work. My warriors aren't finished either.

3. Play Orks: I've seriously considered this one, but for two major flaws. I haven't played Orks since the Nova Open last year....and I had broken them out of storage FOR the Nova Open, because I'd been playing Dark Eldar for so long. So in reality, I'm not really an Ork player anymore. On top of that, while the understanding of how to use an army or a list never dies, it *does* get rusty fairly quickly, and as I discovered at the Nova Open last year, leaves me susceptible to mistakes.

4. Pump up Dark Eldar: My least favorable option: At 2,000 points, I have a full force organization, minus two fast attack choices. That means I add 500 points and don't get anything really substantive out of it - a HUGE waste of efficiency. But with Necrons out for now, Orks having been unpackaged for a year and more, all my various space marine armies having never been played....I'm left with Dark Eldar. And with the Nova coming up, I should probably get in a bit of practice to keep from going rusty.

So....Dark Eldar it is. Prepare to feast your eyes on my 2,000 point list, with the addition of some horrendous reaver jetbikes and a bunch of....unnecessary fat and padding.

HQ: Baron Sathonyx
HQ: 3x Haemonculi with Shattershard/Liquifier, Liquifier, Liquifier

Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 9x Wyches with a Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire Grenades, Shardnet and Impaler, in a Raider with a Flickerfield, Grisly Trophies, and a Torment Grenade Launcher.

Elite: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Elite: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Elite: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons

Fast: 4x Beastmasters, 4x Razorwings, 10x Khymerae
Fast: 6x Reaver Jetbikes with 2x Heat Lances
Fast: 6x Reaver Jetbikes with 2x Heat Lances

Heavy: Ravager with triple Dark Lances, Flickerfield, Nightshields
Heavy: Ravager with triple Dark Lances, Flickerfield, Nightshields
Heavy: Ravager with triple Dark Lances, Flickerfield, Nightshields


And that's it. My 2,000 point list got reavers, two haemonculi, 5 more beasts....and a hell of a lot of pork. If this was a budget it would be pork. If it was a diet, I'd be eating chocolate cake. Stale chocolate cake because this list doesn't taste good. In fact, this list would be the dietary equivalent of stale chocolate cake made with unsweetened chocolate and rancid eggs...when I don't even LIKE chocolate, and eating it would mean that I'm not allowed to have yellow cake ever again, but I don't have anything else to eat, and eating is mandatory.

And so I scarf down the rancid and stale chocolate cake army list even though I know how awful and wasteful it is because I don't have any other option except to starve. Fuck you 'Ard Boyz. It's one thing to succeed with an uncompetitive codex like Necrons....and to achieve in the face of adversity. It's quite another to bring an ugly and inefficient bulbous waste to the table and show it to people.

I'm quite ashamed of what I've got here, and can honestly say that neither winning or losing will emotionally affect me this weekend. If I lose, I was expecting to because it was literally a 2500 vs 2000 game, and I knew all along (and know right now) that this isn't very scary to most 2500 armies that Dark Eldar find challenging. And if I win, I'll know that it wasn't because of me overcoming adversity with an underdog army....but simply because the other armies there and the generals there weren't good enough to overcome this crap heap.

Anyway, rant off. Comment away. And as always, thanks for clicking our ads! Hulksmash says that our ad revenue is getting us shirts, which we'll have for the Nova Open, and that if I'm a good Dark Elf, he'll get me a torture device for Christmas.

Comments (24)

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Have you thought of using 2x 9 man squads of reavers with 3 H.lances and an arena champion? they actually become a close combat threat, decemate both veichles and infantry, and can give your vehicles cover saves. seems pretty efficient especialy with a pain token. just a thought.
GreySeerZ's avatar

GreySeerZ · 711 weeks ago

Uh... I don't understand how you feel that this list will not be successful. With limitless Force Org, yes you could take better things, and probably stomp everyone, but isn't that the point of Force Org, to limit certain armies from being ridiculously good. Fielding 6 ravagers would be ridiculous. You've taken your additional 500 points and filled it with the most competitive alternatives in your codex. I don't see how this in any way gimps your army, and should in fact, make it more flexible. Reaver jetbikes are very good and so are beasts. Bumping the reavers up to 9 and removing the haemonculi would make them even more of a threat. Alternatively you could drop more warriors and run more wyches (I know you were a big fan of wych armies in the past). Wyches are great for holding up the large elite deathstars found in most 2500 pt lists, and a bunch of wyches does this quite well, and even wins in some cases.

I don't understand why you, a player who has worked with some of the worst, and made them into some of the best, has so much trouble breaking away from your venom/blaster venom/warrior spam. I mean I understand there is a limited amount of time til Nova, and that you are most comfortable with this list. But with some serious theoryhammer and playtesting you could make a different list that would catch opponents off-guard, instead of the venom spam everyone is expecting.

This might just be the naivety of my Dark Eldar experience, but saying this list is week, and fearing changing it to something completely different, makes me feel like you've pigeonholed the codex into one build, a codex which has very strong unit choices in almost every Force Org slot...maybe I'm just an idiot though :D.
First off I agreed that last year DE had no place at 2,500. I think they will do fine at that point value now honestly, just not in the method you're currently using.

Naturally it depends on the models you have available but I'd heavily consider dropping 2 of the venom Warriors and replacing them with large wych or wrack units. Probably wyches because of the grenades. Me personally? I'd probably grab a webway portal on 1 of the 2 haemi's and add beast squads. Flinging them out from halfway up the table makes them a larger threat. Or leave the small warrior squads but drop some of the trueborn (1-2) units and replace them with Grotesques on Raiders. The threat will take the heat off your troop units and cause you to get more mileage with them.
5 replies · active 711 weeks ago
Yea, I was also thinking of a WWP or 2 as well. They aren't that expensive of an addition, and really give you a load more options, especially if your taking several haemonculi anyway. Taking 1/2 WWPs on hameunculi accompanying 2 wych squads with 2 beast squads waiting with baron in reserve offers a pretty handy 1/2 punch. Wyches tie up enemy CC units, hameonculi drop portals, and beast come in to clean up. Sure some of this relies on reserve rolls, but reserve WWP units have the advantage of coming in relatively close to where you need them. I don't think its all that possible to build a list solely around WWPs, but as beast/hellion delivery systems they are pretty amazing, especially when considering the fragility of most DE troops.
My complaint isn't that it is a bad list...or that I will be competing with a poor codex:� It is that my army is inefficient.� Wasteful.� The kind of army that one looks at and says, "Wow...seriously?� That's awful."�

I think I'm just disgusted with myself for making it.� Maybe I should add more wyches instead - my concern is my actual inventory of available wyches.


The problem is that since you don't play around with your codex constantly any list that deviates from your norm is going to feel inefficient and most likely will be since you don't know how to tie it all together through experience with the various units individually and together. Either way good luck brother, I'm only moderately looking forward to tomorrow, but I have to play if I want a chance at a free 2.5k army :)
Well, I added another unit of wyches to replace a unit of warriors.� I cut the nightshields back off the ravagers, cut out a reaver unit, added 3 more reavers, an arena champion and another heat lance to the unit of reavers remaining....also cut out a haemonculi, and balanced it out by dropping one khymerae.

The plan had been 3x Haemonculi to go with 1x wych unit and 2 reaver units (to drop pain tokens before separating and hanging with trueborn).� I liked it.� New plan:� Two haemonculi, two wych units.

Total loss:� 1x Haemonculi, 5x warriors, 1x venom, 1x Khymarae, 6x Reavers with two heat lances, Ravager Nightshields
Total Gain:� 9x Wyches, Raider, 3x Reavers with a heat lance and champion.

Not sure if I like it better....but I'm not agonizing about it because I continue to be more interested in video games than 40k right now. =p


Haha, yea, I like that list a little better. I still think you could go a bit further, but like you said, your model inventory is rather limited. I think you'll be surprised at how well a large unit of reaver jetbikes can perform. They're bloodvane ability, anti-tank shooting, speed and, at 9, even combat ability vs. certian units is nothing to scoff at. Regardless you will still have a ton of your reliable (or in your case un-reliable :P) shooting in the background to handle most armies.

I would still love to see you play something completely different. Throwing in more wych and coven units can still build a very competitive list, although it would also play very differently. But the lack of time and models obviously hinders that. Anyway, I like the feel of the new list a lot more and it should perform very well.
I have to agree that you've pigeonholed you DE into a single type of list. I think this shows a little bit that armies need to change to the point level. This is a case of the building block method failing. The problem is that currently you're only happy with the tools you have and don't have any inclination to branch from it. Personally I don't think your build is a good idea at all at 2,500. I think you need to invest more in resilience and less in offense. Ard Boyz is generally about outlasting your opponent while you trade body blows and your current list won't do that.

Just my thoughts. And yeah, click the Adds :) If you're headed to Nova Dash and I will be wearing our shirts so you can find on Saturday, the first day of the GT!
newtoncain's avatar

newtoncain · 711 weeks ago

What no Hellions with the baron?
Add one TB w/ SpC to each squad = 22 pts a pop.
NS/FF on everthing, nothing kills a GK day than range 18" PsyC/SB.
Try out a razorwing Fighter.
! more group of wyches/wacks is a good idea.
2 replies · active 711 weeks ago
DoP likes his Baron in his Beasties, which I definitely support. Cover jumping is pretty easy for both, and the +1 stealth provides ensures that his beasties make it where they want. The only time I'd drop Baron from beast units is if your taking some WWPs, as now the beasts can deploy a lot closer. Beasts running across the board without Baron tend to die when something looks at them.

As for NS/FF, I always take FF on my wych carrying raiders (as NS usually doesn't even matter) and both on my shooting vehicles (venoms/raiders/ravagers). Against certain opponents, like GK, both are just soo soo good.

I've tried a razorwing fighter, and they are awesome. Just last game, 6 fiends of Slaanesh dead, wiped the entire unit, and it was in a place to do some serious hurt. Sure the turn it arrives is random, but my 2 ravagers hold down the fort. And when that baby does come in, its easily making up the several rounds of shooting it missed with its pure offensive potential.

But yea, /agreed on the +wyches/wracks.
newtoncain's avatar

newtoncain · 711 weeks ago

My son runs DE and always has NS/FF all his transports. I know the NS have saved Raider/Venom numerous times. What your rapid firing Bolters, PG, MGs and all pistols are at range 6.1+"? Most GK stuff at 18.1", Sorry they miss.

I still can't get him to put grizzly trophies on his vehicals.
Hey Dash/Hulk/or anyone else...
I kinda have the same problem with Dash here has DE doesn't scale really well at 2.5k level while maintaining some coherency and redundancy. But I will say this… I’m going to build Vect with is ride as this is really the only point level I think Vect would work. Let me know what you think:
The Love Bird List (2500pt)
HQ: Vect + Dias of Destruction
HQ: Lady Malys

Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 5x Warriors with Blaster in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Troop: 9x Wyches + a Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire Grenades, Shardnet and Impaler, in a Raider with a Flickerfield, Shock Prow, and Grisly Trophies
Troop: 7x Wyches + a Hekatrix Agonizer, Haywire Grenades, Shardnet and Impaler (to go with Vect & Malys in Dias of Destruction)

Elite: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Elite: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons
Elite: 4x Trueborn with 4x Blasters in a Venom with Dual Splinter Cannons

Fast: 3x Reaver Jetbikes with 1x Blaster
Fast: 3x Reaver Jetbikes with 1x Blaster
Fast: 3x Reaver Jetbikes with 1x Heat Lance

Heavy: Ravager with triple Dark Lances, Flickerfield, Nightshields, Shock Prow
Heavy: Ravager with triple Dark Lances, Flickerfield, Nightshields, Shock Prow
Heavy: Ravager with triple Dark Lances, Flickerfield, Nightshields, Shock Prow

The Idea is to deliver Vect’s unit asap to the enemy (Dias + Malys’ immunity to psyhics helps with unit’s resiliency). Reavers take the harassment roll and can pop high-valued targets (like GreenBaron Deffkoptas) Vect also can help with sieze init (but that’s NOT the reason I have him)… Vect is simply a DE model I want in this list, even if it’s not the most efficient use of his points. But pound-per-pound, he’s almost as powerful as Ghazzy (Ghazzy being 1a, and Vect 1b).

Also Malys' abiility to re-deploy D3 units (even into reserve!) is an intriguing tactic...

Thoughts??
2 replies · active 711 weeks ago
The above list is going to get it's own post......It'll be up early this evening.
O.o

Uh oh... what did I do now???

*sheepishly looking around*

;)
Dashofpepper's avatar

Dashofpepper · 711 weeks ago

I totally just noticed that Trueborn have two base attacks. TWO. Not one. *forehead slap* Every game I've played since the new codex came out....I've been cheating myself out of attacks!
A little late, but - maybe for bigger points WWP list are better?
like you can deny opponent shooting on first turn, and if you have two WWP's you can threat opponent from different positions..
A little late, but - maybe for bigger points WWP list are better?
like you can deny opponent shooting on first turn, and if you have two WWP's you can threat opponent from different positions..
= sorry for double post..
Dashofpepper's avatar

Dashofpepper · 711 weeks ago

Random update...but I went 3-0, and ended in third place. I like to call it "Pulling a Hulksmash" for when you go undefeated, and end up behind someone who didn't win all their games. :)
4 replies · active 710 weeks ago
newtoncain's avatar

newtoncain · 711 weeks ago

lol
Hahaha
finished third because of "rude behavior"? )
wha-?� I finished third because I was third in points.

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