-HQ-
Archon-110
Agoniser, Shadowfield
-Elite-
3 Trueborn-146
3xBlasters, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
3 Trueborn-146
3xBlasters, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
3 Trueborn-146
3xBlasters, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
-Troops-
5 Warriors-125
Blaster, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
5 Warriors-125
Blaster, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
5 Warriors-125
Blaster, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
5 Warriors-125
Blaster, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
5 Warriors-125
Blaster, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
5 Warriors-125
Blaster, Venom w/2 Splinter Cannons
-Fast Attack-
4 Beast Masters-198
6 Flockwings, 5 Kymera
4 Beast Masters-186
6 Flockwings, 4 Kymera
-Heavy Support-
Ravager-105
Ravager-105
Ravager-105
It's 108 poisoned shots with a 36" range along with 24 St8 AP2 shots for anti-tank. The anti-tank you do have is primarily in infantry units which should hopefully help them last longer than a standard raider. It uses all but a single HQ and Fast Attack choice on the force org chart. The Beastmasters are there for some decent CC ability when teamed with the Archon should be able to handle anything that get's thru. I think it's actually pretty balanced overall and that the only thing that would keep me from playing it is the fact that I'd need to convert 9 Venoms.....So much work!
So, thoughts?
26 comments:
This is probably the most competitive list I've seen yet, at least on paper.
More str8 than SW missile spam lists bring, tons of MSU/1+1 with 12 vehicles. The only thing that even resembles a weakness would be fragile scoring units. If you do a lot of softening up with venoms and killshots with warriors, you'll at least have a few with FnP.
Shocking amount of firepower though, most players wouldn't be able to ignore that to focus on scoring units.
I'd love to see this list played out.
I think I'd rather have Wracks in Raiders and Razorwings, but the basic concept is solid.
Yeah Chumb. I kinda like my other list a little bit more but this is probably the nastiest combination of firepower and mobility you can put togther. It's also easier than converting 30 Wracks to look as good as I want them to if it's not gonna be a "Wyche" themed army with captured Gladiators.
One change that could be made is to take a Haemonculi as your HQ and change one of the warrior squads in Wracks. You lose a blaster but gain a very tough, hard to move troop choice.
You have been playing MSU SW too long Hulk. Your brain has rotted, much like this list.
G
MSU SW's BBF? Have you seen my list? It's got a 600pt unit in it. MSU it is not.
I'd prefer for you not to copy paste from your forums onto my blog the math hammer. It can be said more simply and with far less space taken up. I have no idea why you felt the need to paste 2 units who's weapons aren't even in the list so I'm going to edit that out. It can be put into the comments on my up and coming heavy support review. There are no lists that will "roll" mech IG. But there are a lot of armies out there who can neutralize and take apart IG which is what this army can do.
On a last note please make sure your posts actually deal with the topic. I don't have a problem with people who disagree with me but I do have a problem with pointless info that doesn't help anybody in relation to the topic. Thanks :)
The main point of BBF's previous post. I can't edit out just the Voidraven/Heat Lance math hammer but I want his comment to be on here so I copy pasted his actual dialogue and the pertinent math hammer.
Dark lance (S8 AP2)
vs AV12+:
0.67 to hit
> 0.33 to penetrate
0.33 to wreck or destroy
7% chance to wreck or destroy (not good at all)
> 0.5 to glance
17% chance to immobilize (not as bad but by no means reliable)
23% chance to shake or stun (fairly decent but still nothing special)
vs AV11:
0.67 to hit
> 0.5 to penetrate
0.33 to wreck or destroy
11% chance to wreck or destroy (still not good)
> 0.67 to glance
22% chance to immobilize
30% chance to shake or stun
vs AV10:
0.67 to hit
> 0.67 to penetrate
0.33 to wreck or destroy
15% chance to wreck or destroy
> 0.83 to glance
29% chance to immobilize
46% chance to shake or stun
Basically lances are not that great against armor. Your army is blaster heavy spam and must get too close to be effective. If you can come up with a list that rolls right over mech IG I'll be the first to let ya know.
Look man hard numbers are hard numbers... Yeah I know they might make you cry like a lil baby. Suck it up man. If you wanna talk the talk then ya gotta walk the walk too.
G
You are advocating a blaster spam army. My math hammer shows the truth - lance spam is not going to cut it versus heavy mech. Your list is one dimensional and lacks imagination. You are going to need to follow a process to break down mech uh lecha.
G
Ah, and the old BBF is back.....Cute man. But since everyone deserves and answer even if they don't always listen to it here you go:
Hard numbers on weapons not in the army don't have any relevance to this army. So they are superflious. The numbers on St8 AP2 are completely valid.
This army does indeed need to close with the enemy. It will also if it gets first turn be able to put 24 St8 on anything not within 6" of the rear of the table. Even your math hammer says 5 pens and 3 glances. It's a solid start and you won't have the platforms available to make a significant dent in the 9 blaster units and 3 anti-tank vehicles from there forward. And any unit on the groud dies horribly to the poison shots.
If I go second (something that will happen regularly) then I have to make other adjustments. It's not going to roll Mech IG, nothing does on turn 1. But it can most certainly build momentum and take a win.
As for walking and talking I'm not having a single problem with it yet :)
One dimensional? It's got loads of anti-tank and anti-infantry. It's got a 3 CC units for breaking down the enemy including beasts that can stun/damage tanks galore. Is it spammy? Yes. Does it have more than 1 tool for most problems? Also yes.
Anti what ?? Don't try to pull a Dakka move. No one smart is buying it. Blasters suck versus tank and cover means infantry will laff at you. Like I said your army is one dimensional.
G
I know you have a hate on for mech armies BBF. I'm pretty sure your smarter than your previous post shows. What the hell does cover have to do with 108 poison shots? St8 is the staple of anti-tank in this edition. I've beated 2 very good IG players that got to go first with only 19 St8 shots. Now my Wolves are more resilient but they actually have less units, platforms and shots.
Individually almost everything sucks against mech BBF. Even melta guns that get within 6" (24%)and Railguns (25%) look bad individually against AV12. Come up with a better argument than St8 sucks against armor and we'll have a conversation about it. Till then it's just you yelling for attention which I won't be giving you anymore. I won't censor your comments as long as they pertain to the topic (and most likely not even then unless they take up an insane amount of space) but I won't respond to anything that isn't well thought out conversation from you either.
Also, the critical thing about the above list in relation to Mech is it doesn't need to destroy the vehicle to make the shot worthwhile. To whit, if you stun/shake a Razorback/Chimera/etc, then the model can't fire back at the weak Venoms and take them down. This list can reliably get 9 glances or better on AV11 in one round of shooting.
Also, blasters have an even longer effective range than what you've listed, HS. Don't forget you deploy 2" out of the vehicle and get almost the full 1" of your base as well.
So, the list has anti-mech in spades. In addition, if you get out of your vehicles, those 108 shots amount to ~36 wounds before saves. That's not insignificant. Also, with 36" range and 12" movement, you can't really get away from it that easily.
This list vs IG Mech I think comes down to who goes first (barring terrain and if both generals are equally skilled); but there's no guarantee either way.
Initially I didn't think DE was going to change much in terms of the metagame, but now I'm thinking people are going to start adding in more long range, medium strength shooting to infantry squads to go after venom spam; as they can flit about out of range and spit splinters.
Anyway, I don't think the above list is unbeatable, but it certainly is a tough matchup for a wide variety of armies.
Exactly Fluger. I never said it would dethrone mech. I just think it's a solid list that has a chance against the majority of opponents.
Every list has bad match up and I think my worst is 9+ AV12 IG Vehicles. I think I can make it an even run even if the IG go first but it's not guaranteed and I think with this list you could still make it a game. Which is all I ask of in an army :)
I agree with Fluger - you have to focus on what you can do stunning and shaking mech. Luckily DE do have access to some excellent tools to wreck treads once they get close enough to assault.
G
Assault vehicles to pop them? Like with Wyches and haywire grenades? What do the wyches do when they assault the vehicle and the unit inside shoots them in the face next turn?
Am I missing some uber anti-mech assault factor or is this just a terrible idea?
I don't have the codex, but my understanding is the beasts are capable of putting out enough S4-6 hits to pose a real threat to vehicles, and then have wound and inv save shenanigans galore to survive the return fire.
Harlies can be a potent threat to armor. Now especially since you can transport them.
G
@hyv3mynd
Your not missing anything. There isn't a solid CC anti-mech factor in the list. There are 5 units that can hurt a vehicle in CC, let's look at them:
1) Beastmasters-W/out bonuses you've got St3 Rending, St4, and St5 depending on the beats but it's not super dependable (numbers are probably far, far worse than St8 shooting)
2) Groteques-St6 if they have FnP otherwise St5 and expensive
3) Hellions-IF they roll +Strength and have FC then they get up to St6 on the charge but it's not likely.
4) Cronos-3 St5 MC attacks
5) Talos-d6 St7 attacks which is probably the "best" of the bunch in CC
6) Harlies-St4 Rending....Not reliable either. Especially since you have to give them someone elses transport to even get them there.
So your not missing anything. Most of your tank killing will probably come from shooting as almost everything in the list above needs certain things to line up or are primarily glancers and won't penetrate often or at all.
You missed something... Harlies have real melta weapons not S6 sissy stuff .
G
The cost for the platform isn't worth the cost of 2 fusion pistols. That's one turn of shooting when you can get multiple turns of shooting with more shots for much cheaper. And most of that was in response to assaulting tanks being the answer to mech for DE which is completely wrong. Only Nids can rely on cc for anti-tank because most of their units largely ignore the retaliation or are cheap enough not to matter.
We will see who does better with the army.
G
It's a nice list in theory, but I'm not liking the MSU on units that are so weak. When those venoms start exploding (and they will) you'll be losing those very small squads in the explosion and since they're LD8, stand a good chance of A) getting pinned, B) running off the board.
You're going to find yourself in very short supply of scoring units in most games. And those games that aren't objective based? Well, you've got 24KP, so yeah. I think this list will win a lot of games vs average players, but vs people who know what they're doing, I think it'll go south pretty quick.
You'll own nids in the face though...
@Garth
Your assuming that the squads are staying inside the transports. I'll hide the one squad I need within run distance of an objective and the others will forward deploy. The whole point is to get in first punch on mech forces which means you'd have to disembark to make range in most cases. If you do this, and into cover, then enemy multi-lasers/heavy bolters/assault cannons have to start making choices which is what this list is all about.
You can't run this army like Wolves or IG because they don't have either the survivability or numbers. You need to play them like Daemons, all out aggression. Which means debarking, creating multiple threat points, and constant pressure. As for having 24 KP's, yeah, that could suck if dice turn horribly against me. But in general I'm playing people that I only have 4-5 more KP's than to start. And once their platforms start to go down it ramps up. Though the same could be said for my opponent...hehe
It's a brutal idea on paper. I'm going to give it a shot after I get my Baron based army up and running because i think it's pretty nasty. It's not breaking the game by any means though and it's easy to look at a list and say it doesn't work, another to see it across from you. That door goes both ways to though since it could be a disaster with my playstyle :)
I made this list and played with it several times. Efficient but not hard to beat. Orks ate me alive but i had no problem against nids BA Tau Black Templar and Chaos
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