Thursday, May 26, 2011

Would you rather have my venoms...or my venoms?

Howdy doodly.

Is is strange that I always start my posts with "Hey folks!" Or "Hey, this is Dashofpepper" or "Sup mah bitches and hoes?!?" Actually, not the last one because my previous posting venue (Dakka) probably would have screened it out.

In fact, to make that more "kosher" I should note that I've always called Black Templar "Black Devils" and lump BA/SW/GK all into a lump of "SM" cheese. Since we all know that Black Templar are bitches, and BA/SW/GK are hoes, then I could actually start my posts with, "Sup mah BDSM fans?!?"

But I digress.

After an unpleasant bout of debate concerning my venom conversions and their attendance at the Alamo, I sent a followup e-mail to the organizers of the Railhead Rumble GT with a picture of my venoms and a more descriptive explanation of the conversions. I had previously solicited and acquired permission to use them - as I did for the Alamo GT, Wargamescon, and the Nova Open - but after Michael Brandt noted that he didn't actually expect them to be as big as they were, I decided to revisit to make sure I was in the clear.

Some facts:
The 3rd edition raider is 5.75" long, and averages approximately 2" wide, tapering out in the front and in the extreme rear.
The 5th edition Venom is 4.75" long, and its wingspan is 4.5" on the nose. I can't approximate its "average" width, or am too lazy to have tried it when I put the tape measure to the sprue in the black box.

To put this in perspective, the only disagreement any opponent has had with me to date - which wasn't voice during a game, but in the battle report, was when a lone surviving marine in my 5th game at the Alamo GT dropped a Melta into a venom, wrecked it, and the warriors inside disembarked 2" out on the other side of him, out of assault range. Given the open-topped nature of the Venom, had I had the new ones, I could have actually disembarked approximately 2" FURTHER away from him than I was able to using my 3rd edition raider because of the Venom wingspan.

So, after receiving an e-mail reply from the Railhead Rumble GT organizers telling me that they wouldn't allow my conversions because of the possibility of opponent's complaining - but that if I could get an assemble the new venoms in the 4 day window available between their release and the GT, I could bring them unpainted and they would count my other venoms (my painted ones) towards my paint score. I freaked. I can't get the new venoms in time, I don't have enough Vypers as a stand in, my Orks haven't been fielded in almost a year and aren't ready for GT play - not to mention that they've suffered some damage from multiple moves in the last year, and my other army - my Necrons - probably won't be ready in time due to the labor-intensive requirements of fixing those Monoliths.

My response noted that I have five vypers that I can "substitute" if they can loan/rent me another three, as long as they were ok with them not being WYSIWYG. The organizers agreed - and noted that the judges would all be aware of my models in case opponents needed to be informed - and that at each game, I would have both sets of models available, with my opponent's discretion choosing which set of venoms to use.

That's actually quite reasonable! This is the only event where this matter because the release of the new Venom and the time lapse between this and the next GT (Wargamescon) should give me ample time to assemble and get the new Venoms painted. So the question for you:

You're at a Grand Tournament, arrive at your table, and find me standing across you. I explain the two sets of venom models to you, why I have two sets, and ask you to choose which set you prefer to play against.

Option #1: 3rd Edition Raiders converted with dual splinter cannons. They are longer and taller than real venoms, but also skinner. They are painted, WYSIWYG, and themed with my army.

Option #2: 4th Edition Eldar Vypers. They are almost the same length as the Venom, and possibly skinnier. They are not WYSIWYG, don't have splinter cannons, nor are they painted. Actually, I take that back - they're in the state I got them in. One is blue and gold, one is primed white, one might be yellow, and two are grey. Three more of them - I have no idea what they might look like.

Which set of venoms would you choose to play against?


Rkik said...

I'd pick the converted Raiders.

The size isn't a significant difference, and I'd rather play against a uniform, painted army.

That, and I really don't care for the new Venoms/Vypers. I'm really disappointed that GW decided to go with the converted Vyper look for the Venoms. It just looks too smooth for the DE. That and it just looks like a half assed conversion rather than a new model.

sonsoftaurus said...

Personally I'd want option #1, but then I'm not hardcore tourney-man.

They'd look better and therefore make the game look better which would make me happier, and you'd get to use the models you built yourself, which I imagine would make you happier, which would in turn make me happier.

I think over the course of the game the size differences would largely balance out as far as advantages/disadvantages.

Stillfrosty said...

Being a tournament goer, I'd say raiders are fine. It is harder for you to get a cover save and I am assuming they are modeled well so who cares.

Mike Brandt; mvbrandt@gmail said...

You use the Vypers b/c they're nearly identical to the new Venoms, and the los/cover/disembarkations/etc. would all be much closer to design intent and actual play.

Also, getting to disembark off a much larger area when trying to charge / get side armor shots / get in-range shots / avoid subsequent charges when wrecked / etc. is an enormous, nigh-on-absurd advantage that is given, and the cover thing is sorta irrelevant given the presence of flickerfields.

If you used the larger raiders (And the measurements aren't quite as simple as you've stated, due to the fact that these aren't rhino-shaped box models), in NOVA FAQ basic modeling rules, you'd gain any disadvantages as a result of the larger models, but none of the advantages.

Derp derp, I don't think this stuff matters as much in casual play at all, though.

Lyracian said...

If you asked me to choose I would take option two. However if you just told me option one I would happily play against them.

Crispy said...

I'd probably be fine with either, but if you gave me a choice, I'd probably go with 2. After a long GT day, my mind isn't as sharp as it could be, and I've confused counts as models in the past. I like conversions that are easy to identify, and don't easily confuse.

Dashofpepper said...

Crispy, the converted venoms cannot be mistaken for raiders. I am using the new raider models for raiders, and the old raider models for venoms. The are visually distinct before I get to the conversions.

Mike, the measurements "are" that simple. My venoms give me 1" of extra deployment out of the front or rear, and 2" LESS deployment out of the sides. So says my tape measure.

I'm actually fine with either option. I think it is cool of the TO to present the option to my opponents. It will all be irrelevant after this GT anyway as my Venoms arrive and I work to prepare them for the next GT.

Calypso2ts said...

I would go with option 1 in a second. It is unlikely that the game will be won or lost based on 1" or 2" overall and that difference would probably be more than made up for by the 4+ cover save the 'old style' venoms would not get.

If it does matter, then I probably am out of contention anyway because in a game that close I doubt either of us will get full points which effectively removes you from the chance at best general.

Also, I go to a GT to play against good opponents with great painted armies.

Dashofpepper said...

Calypso, I would definitely prefer to have my Necrons there. But I simply cannot bring an army that is not fully painted to a GT. I don't think it is even allowed at most of them. I have not submitted my army list yet - they are due June 01, because I am desperately hoping the Crons' can be done in time.

Zerodaimaru said...

Well my vote would be for option 1. I'm about to get murdered anyway might as well be murdered by the prettier knife :P.

I'm not good enough yet to be tournament ready so this is comming from a more casual perspective, but from a competative perspective I don't think the difference is big enough for it to change the way the game will play out enough to swing it either way.

inquisitor_dunn said...

I think they are just making a knee jerk reaction. At least they offered to help find a solution.

I wouldn't mind option 1 as long as you were using new raiders for raiders, which you are.

Now come June, do you think tournie organizers will allow FW razorwings or will those players have to purchase the new kit?

Calypso2ts said...

LoL Dash, I didn't expect you to bring the Necrons (like you have said they aren't painted) that is why I would prefer your good looking converted raiders!

-I wish there was a reply button...

Dayve220 said...

@ Calypso2ts
There is! Someone just has to fiddle with the HTML coding... theres a guide online somewhere to do it, so pester hulk about it!

@ Dash
Either's fine. Given by how fat the new venoms are, I'd proberly go for the old raiders, as that gives you less deployment range to the sides and are uniformly painted.

Dashofpepper said...

Davye, shush! Everyone knows that the old raiders are totally overpowered cheese extra unfair advantageous to use.

Eric said...

I would much rather play against the old Raider conversions. Actually having them WYSIWYG is a bigger deal to me than a small size difference. Plus having them painted to match the army is always preferable.

speedfreek said...

I really, really like people converting their models. This means I lean towards option 1, to let you play your converted Raiders.
If you had used a razor saw and cut away about an inch or more from the middle of them I would approve even more.
As they are now, they are way to large, and I agree this gives a lot of disadvantages aswell, but it gives advantages too and your opponent will only remember them...

speedfreek said...

Is it to much work to do the proposed to cut away an inch in the middle of each Raider/Venom with a razor saw?
I believe this would solve a lot of your opponents issues.

Slice'n'Dice said...

Personally I would prefer option 1, but would let my opponent decide which one they would like to use... (especially if there is a sportsmanship component to the game). I think other things are much more important in game outcome (army selection, positioning, psychology etc).

Kris said...

If people don't have the balls to complain to you at the table then they shouldn't whine like a b**** in a batrep.
Honestly the competitive side of this game can be quite sad at times. Although we can mainly blame GWS for not really encouraging any kind of conversions or creativity.

GreySeerZ said...
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GreySeerZ said...

The only issue I see, and I think you will really need to mentally prepare for this, is that either choice will hurt if you start crushing your opponent. Competitive individuals who can't handle a major loss will find any reason to bitch about said loss, and will attempt to try and drag you down with them. Its ugly, but I've seen it way too many times as a result of me or someone else just playing better.

If you go with option A, they will remember that one time it gave you the advantage, and will mark you down poorly for it, nomatter how many times you remind them that they chose it. And with option B, they will complain about the WYSIWYG, even though the TO said it was ok. Its just the way sore losers are, and most tournaments, when you get to the end, have several sore losers. And its sad that Tournament organizers can't do a better job to protect players from sore losers, and most just half-ass the sportsmanship score by not defining it, or confronting both sides to determine the truth.

Now I would probably go with option A, as I really don't think it will matter that much. If an opponent is struggling to deal with the length of your raider conversions, they will most likely struggle to deal with the width of the real venom models as well. And I would much rather know the weapons layouts then have to remember.

Just warning though, they will bitch, they always do. In my circle of gamers I know exactly who will and why, its inevitable for some people. But hopefully it won't ruin your fun! and Goodluck!

Banjo said...


David said...

I would go for the Vypers. After reading your battle reports you use the pivot after the move for extra movement and range. The Vyper/Venom is more of a box and you can not use that tactic.

The Hod said...

I would do option #1 for casual games or playtesting.

Option #2 for any tournament game. Your raiders counts as vypers in situations are modeled for advantage. With the actual Venom model released you now know the intended size for the vehicle. Those raiders are still raiders from 3rd edition. As a dark eldar player who has bought vypers and converted them to Venoms, I personally feel that your raider proxy has very little effort put into it. There were no real complaints in your games as the TOs allowed for your raiders to be venoms. To me its still modeling for advantage.

It is not that hard to order off of ebay 20 or so splintercannons and glue them on vypers. A very quick method of painting is to buy some masking tape and prime the model black and then tape some parts and prime white for a very clean line.

K said...

Honestly? Option 2 because of the potential for pivot-move-pivot cheese, plus the fact that the cannons are mounted to the tip of the nose on each Raider-Venom.

Big Matt said...
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Big Matt said...

Option Number 2. It would be difficult to get used to Venoms moving a displaced distance 15 to 16 inches and firing everything or moving flat-out 27 inches without sails.

I'm used to people not using an pivot and move tactic. I would rather not face that rules interpretation the first time in a tourney setting...

Anyways the drama around that issue should become mute when you wreck face with the new Venoms.

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