Thursday, December 15, 2011

Codex Creep – The Myth and the Legend #2 (Unit Comparison)

Let me start this by saying I’m not picking on Corrollax. In fact I think his response actually highlights what a lot of people think and feel when they think of “Codex Creep” and so I thought it would be worthwhile to respond in a full article as opposed to a single entry in the comments section. So thanks Corrollax for giving me some more material to work with. We’ll start by quoting his last comment which was given after I asked how it was relevant to compare Incubi and Purifiers:

Well, they're both Elite units. They both have a 3+ armor save. They're approximately the same point cost (22 vs. 24 points). They both have S4 power weapons.

Now add on the fact that purifiers get instant death weapons, cleansing flame, hammerhand, more and better upgrade options, krak and psyk-out grenades, storm bolters and the ability to purchase a 2+ invuln save for the unit...

I can't conceive of how you could possibly think that this isn't codex creep. It boggles my mind that you would just look past this.”

When you look at this quote it’s easy to see why people would see codex creep between books. It’s also easy to understand some of their frustration, especially if they play the army they feel has been out creeped. Now I don’t know if Corrollax plays DE or not. And honestly it doesn’t matter but it does highlight a couple of aspects of why Codex Creep exists in the community mind.

The first is that this is a hobby where we become invested in our armies. It’s hard not to be after hours (sometimes hundreds) of building, painting, and playing. To make matters worse it takes most hobbyists several months to get an army up to a playing standard which means that by the time you’ve finished that army it’s likely another book has or is about to drop. It’s easy to look at that new book and see what your army doesn’t have and then righteous anger flows through you centered at the beast named Codex Creep!

For this first aspect there isn’t much that can be addressed. The personal investment in our armies is going to make everything that happens to them seem more personal. It’s going to make every unit that matches up well against an aspect of our army that much nastier. Not to say you can’t be personally invested in your army and still maintain a more distant view of changes but it is harder. Especially if the army in question is your only army or by far your favorite.

The second aspect to consider is cross codex unit comparisons. I feel this is something that should be addressed. For Space Marine books this can sometimes have some merit. They are all marines and marine armies play similarly with each having a leaning for a particular style of combat which can generally account for slight costing differences. But comparing Space Marine units to Xenos codex units just doesn’t work.

Like I mentioned in my previous article on Codex Creep the focus of 40k rests squarely with Space Marines. 50% of the codexes are devoted to power armored marines and the actual playing pool at tournaments generally reflects a slightly higher percentage of marine armies. This does lead to people viewing Xenos books in a Space Marine light. You simply can’t do that. While most Space Marines play fairly similarly Nids for example are an entirely different mechanic. Same with Orks, Dark Eldar, or now Necrons. Each Xenos codex plays uniquely and needs to be taken on an individual basis.

Let’s use Corrollax’s example above where he compares Incubi and Purifiers. Again I’m not picking on Corrollax:

Well, they're both Elite units. They both have a 3+ armor save. They're approximately the same point cost (22 vs. 24 points). They both have S4 power weapons.

Now add on the fact that purifiers get instant death weapons, cleansing flame, hammerhand, more and better upgrade options, krak and psyk-out grenades, storm bolters and the ability to purchase a 2+ invuln save for the unit...

So you’ll note that the two units do have some similarities. You’ll also notice that only the benefits for the Purifiers are listed. But that’s not what I really want to delve into. What I want to delve into is instead of slightly similar units from two codexes let’s look at the roles the models play in those codexes and how both codexes appear to be designed.

Codex Dark Eldar is a nasty fast reacting force with massive amount of poison shooting with some solid CC (Beasts, Hellions, Incubi) that is designed around quickly overwhelming the opponent (the longer a DE unit is in combat the more likely they will lose). Granted this isn’t the only variation on what the codex can build but it’s definitely the most prevelant.

Codex Grey Knights is an elite, tough, midranged marine army designed to be mobile and put out lots of firepower. It’s got a high rate of fire depending on your movement but is hampered by its range. And generally, unless going pure foot, is going to be fairly outnumbered by its opponent.

So we have two armies in which shooting plays an important role but is implemented very differently. Incubi are designed for marine killing. They are not designed to kill power weapon armed units though if it’s small enough they should manage it just fine. It’s a unit that has a charge range of approximately 19” (can’t remember if they’re fleet right now so maybe more). Purifiers on the other hand are designed as a bit of a toolbox unit that shores the army up. They are the anti-horde/extra heavy weapon unit. They add quite a bit to the army in both rolls but have their drawbacks. They don’t perform the same role as Incubi in the DE list no matter their similarities on paper and so are inappropriate to compare with.

I see this happen quite often. And it seems to generally focus on comparing marine to xenos units to show how overpowered they are or how some codexes are better than those before it. This whole thing was kinda spur of the moment and brought on between Corrollax’s comment and the post on DakkaDakka about GK’s being OP in the tournament section.

Hope you guys enjoyed. J

Comments (47)

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Well said. The word that comes to mind is gestalt, an organized whole that is perceived as more than the sum of the parts. You just cannot compare two units like that, it will never work. It's not about how unit A from codex 1 compares to unit B from codex 2. It's about how both codices stack against one another when taking into account everything available.
My principle issue with the game is not codex creep, actually. Its the complete inability of Xenos troops to act as anything other than please don't kill me objective squatters, in most practical situations. Most MEQ armies can outfit their troops choices for shooting or hand to hand roles and even combat squad them to adapt their purpose to the scenario. Even Tactical Marines will grind it out against a lot of stuff in hand to hand on sheer statline superiority and the ATSKNF rule. Contrast this to, say, Eldar or Tau, who have no access to melta in the troop slots and get roflstomped in close combat with their core troops. This was not as big of a deal in 4th when objectives could be claiimed by anyone and VP meant that killing half a marine squad netted you some points, but now its the single greatest divide between the books.
5 replies · active 693 weeks ago
I think you will find that most people who complain about specific books fixate on the wrong things, as you pointed out. But really what seperates the powerful armies from the mediocre are the survivability and utility of their core troops. SW, GK, and IG all have a fantasic array of durable and versitile options, generally undercosted at that. IG have the Stubborn Super Blob and Meltavets. SW have the best core troops in the game and Loganwing as another option. GK have troop terminators, spammable henchemen units, and extremely flexible strike squads. This is what should be improved in newer codicies.
3 replies · active 694 weeks ago
I think you're bang on with this really. 'Codex Creep' is in most cases (there will always be the odd unit that is actually under or overpriced) just people having a hard time adapting to whatever is new, either tactically (which really is just a case of 'learn to deal with it') or by adapting their army list (which I can see would be frustrating sometimes).

The problem is exacerbated by people looking at units and prices (especially upgrade prices) in isolation without considering the rest of the codex options, and also by 'new things' (like the 'undying' characters - Thawn, Celestine, etc) that add something extra into the mix that needs to be catered for either tactically or (rarely) by list-adjustment.
spyguyyoda's avatar

spyguyyoda · 694 weeks ago

I feel that Codex Creep is a reflection of a book's impact on the "metagame" as much as anything else. When GK came out, suddenly stun-locking vehicles became much less desirable (even more so with Necrons now), so Fortitude is "OP". Add in the fact that a lot of DE armies relied on a lot of weapons that stunlocked well, but weren't so great at destroying vehicles, so now "GK counter DE = Codex Creep".

So now people are forced to make changes. Instead of seeing it as an ever-shifting metagame, they assume that things are changing just because the new book is so much stronger than the older books. What goes unsaid is that Fortitude >! Haywire, it just reduces it's effectiveness.

Also, I always peril when I roll for Fortitude.
I still cry when I compare vendettas to Eldar grav tanks =(.
2 replies · active 694 weeks ago
I'm pretty disappointed with Tacticals and Scouts. Tacticals are so diluted they are basically worthless and with scouts having WS3 and BS 3 (that of a freshly trained Guardsman) they aren't even good for harassment. Can't wait for a new vanilla codex.
1 reply · active 694 weeks ago
"Codex Creep" is a fallacy insofar that the idea that successive codexes are better than those that came out before it by accident or by design. However, the fact is that some books ARE better than others, period. I don't really see how this is refutable. Eldar, Chaos, Tyranids, Daemons, etc. all fall well short of GK, IG, SW, BA, etc. Sometimes this is due to being out of date compared to contemporary books (Eldar, Chaos, etc.), but others are similar weaker even against its contemporaries.

The issue isn't escalation, though; it's BALANCE. GW has no idea how to balance books between armies and it shows, principally between Xenos and Marines, but also just book to book regardless of race. Maybe this is due to differing writers and development teams, but the fact remains, some books are inherently stronger.

GW books are not designed against a "universal" metric of cost and effect; it's clearly subjective from designer to designer. This means that imbalances will exist because there is no quantifiable formula used to develop unit and character costs, and these are not consistent from book to book, unit to unit. This will always create efficiencies and inefficiencies, and those books with substantially more efficiencies will inherently be stronger. I think this is being heightened by the GK, as their "weaknesses" are exceedingly minimal and easy to mitigate, while their strengths obvious and overwhelming in many cases. Certainly no one is sitting around talking about how Necrons are overpowered, so it's really more of a book to book balance issue than any kind of "codex creep."

Now, exceptional players can elevate bad books and bad builds, and shitty players play good books, but is that really a measurable defense? Or is the combined weight of its players, the median placement, much more accurate? It's very difficult to measure this and tournament results often don't provide the data needed and it would be difficult to extricate "player skill" from the equation. All of this makes deciphering game and codex balance difficult, leaving the door open for opinion pieces like yours, Hulk. Your position is logical and rational, but it's extremely hard for me to believe that the game is balanced when I can open the Tyranid book or Chaos Space Marine book, rip out 2000 points, and know that it has virtually no shot against an average Space Wolves build. I know the game is not balanced when an otherwise solid codex like Dark Eldar has a minimal chance against typical IG or GK builds, simply due to the advantages those armies have to devastate DE weaknesses. A good book, a balanced set of books, should not present these obvious flaws, at least to this degree. There is a distinct lack of parity.

I do not believe there is a "codex creep" in the form of deliberate escalation of power to increase sales, but my experience absolutely leads me to believe there are very obvious imbalances in the game and I don't think the game benefits from it.
2 replies · active 694 weeks ago
Good post, agreed.
theironjef's avatar

theironjef · 694 weeks ago

I think it should also have been relevant in your initial post to point out that purifiers and incubi can't be compared as elites, because purifiers are rarely fielded as elites. When viewed as the troops that they are fielded as, they become spectacularly better than even the comparison above indicates.

Further, I think you showed a bit of a dodge there with your claim that "only the benefits of the Purifiers are shown" suggesting that the long list of awesome things incubi have was deliberately kept off the list for the sake of a fallacious argument. Well? What's that list? Oh wait, it's Power from Pain (woot a good one!), Night Vision (starting to get useless right away), a Klaivex no one takes because he's bad, two powers he could have taken but wouldn't because they're bad, a flamer option that's pretty bad. They do get a higher initiative! Until halberds, then it's lower again, which honestly doesn't matter because they don't have grenades or access to grenades outside of IC support, and ... that's it. I guess they have vehicles to be considered. There are no other purchasable upgrades. I'm assuming you knew this already, so why mention it and not flesh it out?
7 replies · active 694 weeks ago
theironjef's avatar

theironjef · 694 weeks ago

Oh and they're fleet. Guess that's fair to admit. Lower toughness though.
1 reply · active 694 weeks ago
I *will* come back to this, but for now TL:DR. Holy Wall of Text Batman. May I suggest a few pics here and there?
1 reply · active 694 weeks ago
Why? There aren't really illustrative pictures available beyond the unit entries themselves. Like Hulk says, direct unit/cost comparisons between books, especially ones that aren't Marine-to-Marine are only ever part of the story. The operating environment of the whole list matters a lot too.

But there is meaning to such comparisons, as they tell you what happens when two units end up fighting unsupported. It turns out that winning an unsupported engagement matters, because now your opponent has to dredge up some synergy or support and you don't.

There is creep, as designers learn what will and won't work well. Or have attacks of competence/stupidity, as you prefer. Look at Grey Hunters/Blood Angel Tacs vs. ordinary Tacs. Or Blood Claws vs. ordinary Assault Marines, for the other end of the spectrum. Havocs with heavy weapons vs. Long Fangs. Falcon vs. Vendetta. Part of the reason Marines tend to come out well is that everybody has a lot of experience playing against them, and some of that experience is transferable. Because there are so many, the designers just know them well in general.
1 reply · active 694 weeks ago
ShadarLogoth's avatar

ShadarLogoth · 694 weeks ago

Good post again Hulk.

I don't have time to reply in bulk but I did want to look at this comment:
"GW books are not designed against a "universal" metric of cost and effect; it's clearly subjective from designer to designer."

That is just absurd. Over the long run design focus has certainly changed, but GW spends way more money and attention then many people realise on play-testing a new dex and balancing it within the current rules set and other dexes. While they are certainly not perfect, their is a reason most dexes spend years in development. That time is not spent just throwing random shit on the wall and seeing what sticks.
Let's not pretend 40K is a balanced game. Yes, "no game is perfectly balanced," but GW is especially guilty of having a game that not balanced internally (infantry vs mech, assault vs shooting, point costs relative to effectiveness, etc.) much less externally (codex to codex). That's the core of all of these arguments, IMO. If 40K had a strong core ruleset and an overarching vision of point costs relative to effectiveness, the game would have a much better chance of being "approximately" balanced. Each codex SHOULD be different and that is going to inherently bring some choices and variations, as well as strengths and weaknesses. That's strong for the game IF those are true choices and there are actual strengths and weaknesses developed. But when certain aspects of the game are disproportionately stronger or under/over priced, the game breaks down quickly.
In a perfect world, there are zero "no-brainer" selections in a codex. You wouldn't automatically take as many meltaguns as you can fit or spam psyflemen or Chimeras. That's bad design because they've made some options much better than others, and that makes some codexes much better than others because they have more of the "good" options. This compounds the separation between the haves and have nots, creating an imbalanced game. "Codex creep" doesn't exist as a conspiracy by GW. It's just laziness and poor design, not malice.

(not sure why this made me post as two comments...)
1 reply · active 694 weeks ago
Listen, you're entitled to your opinion, but if you think the current set of books are within +/-5% of each other, you are completely delusional, and if you are satisfied with this being acceptable and that GW is doing a good job in this regard, there's really no sense in arguing with that level of ridiculousness. If you think balance is about creating "random armies" as opposed to a situation where every unit is useful and fairly priced, you're missing the point entirely. Units like Mandrakes, Tyrannofexes, Pyrovores, Whirlwinds, etc. are avoided not because they are underappreciated, but because they are over-costed and/or useless. It is a flaw with design, not some bullshit meta or sheep mentality.

As I said, "approximate" balance is the goal; perfect is unattainable. It is possible to do a significantly better job at overall balance than GW is currently doing. I don't think anyone does GW a service by pretending the status quo is anything more than tolerable and the "GW apologists" actually do the hobby a tremendous disservice.
ShadarLogoth's avatar

ShadarLogoth · 693 weeks ago

Actually, I know most units are within about 5% of each other because I understand the Math and mechanics that go into generating these units. If you don't, I really don't know what else to tell you.

Call me a GW apologist all you want, but the numbers (and in this case their sales numbers) don't lie. They are the 700 lb gorilla of TTGs for a reason, and our very conversation here proves that more often then not they are getting it right. Their wouldn't be thousands of blogs devoted to a game if the game mechanics were as irredeemably out of whack as you make it out to be. I've spent my whole life in game development and I know a good product when I see one. And despite your misgivings it doesn't appear that has kept you from devoting at least a marginal amount of time to the hobby, so I suppose their is something you like about the game.

I don't have the time to go into detail by every unit you listed serves a suitable purpose in the right army. The only one I've never put into an army myself is Pyrovores, but their is nothing within itself that makes the unit bad, it just competes for a slot that Nids need anti-tank from within the current rule-set. Again, not that the unit is bad, but the role it plays isn't in high demand on the tournament scene.. That can change completely from meta to meta, and I would rather have the option in there then just another clone of something that the internet community think "works."

And by the way:
use·less
adjective
1.
of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile: It is useless to reason with him.

There is nothing any in Dex anywhere that is useless. Well I take that back, there are occasional pieces of war-gear that have become useless with successive rules changes, but I would say that is the exception rather then the rule.
1 reply · active 693 weeks ago
lol @ Pyrovore 'not bad within itself'. It is a train wreck with no saving grace. What does it bring to the table? Killing non-power armoured infantry in cover. Yay. We might as well have a unit that only counters chaos spawns.
2 replies · active 693 weeks ago
Every codex has some units that aren't popular for competitive play. The current Tyranid codex is a wreck but the Pyro is least of its problems. The FAQ could have solved a lot of the problems but unfortunately it only lead to more problems.

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