Let me start this by saying I’m not picking on Corrollax. In fact I think his response actually highlights what a lot of people think and feel when they think of “Codex Creep” and so I thought it would be worthwhile to respond in a full article as opposed to a single entry in the comments section. So thanks Corrollax for giving me some more material to work with. We’ll start by quoting his last comment which was given after I asked how it was relevant to compare Incubi and Purifiers:
“Well, they're both Elite units. They both have a 3+ armor save. They're approximately the same point cost (22 vs. 24 points). They both have S4 power weapons.
Now add on the fact that purifiers get instant death weapons, cleansing flame, hammerhand, more and better upgrade options, krak and psyk-out grenades, storm bolters and the ability to purchase a 2+ invuln save for the unit...
I can't conceive of how you could possibly think that this isn't codex creep. It boggles my mind that you would just look past this.”
Now add on the fact that purifiers get instant death weapons, cleansing flame, hammerhand, more and better upgrade options, krak and psyk-out grenades, storm bolters and the ability to purchase a 2+ invuln save for the unit...
I can't conceive of how you could possibly think that this isn't codex creep. It boggles my mind that you would just look past this.”
When you look at this quote it’s easy to see why people would see codex creep between books. It’s also easy to understand some of their frustration, especially if they play the army they feel has been out creeped. Now I don’t know if Corrollax plays DE or not. And honestly it doesn’t matter but it does highlight a couple of aspects of why Codex Creep exists in the community mind.
The first is that this is a hobby where we become invested in our armies. It’s hard not to be after hours (sometimes hundreds) of building, painting, and playing. To make matters worse it takes most hobbyists several months to get an army up to a playing standard which means that by the time you’ve finished that army it’s likely another book has or is about to drop. It’s easy to look at that new book and see what your army doesn’t have and then righteous anger flows through you centered at the beast named Codex Creep!
For this first aspect there isn’t much that can be addressed. The personal investment in our armies is going to make everything that happens to them seem more personal. It’s going to make every unit that matches up well against an aspect of our army that much nastier. Not to say you can’t be personally invested in your army and still maintain a more distant view of changes but it is harder. Especially if the army in question is your only army or by far your favorite.
The second aspect to consider is cross codex unit comparisons. I feel this is something that should be addressed. For Space Marine books this can sometimes have some merit. They are all marines and marine armies play similarly with each having a leaning for a particular style of combat which can generally account for slight costing differences. But comparing Space Marine units to Xenos codex units just doesn’t work.
Like I mentioned in my previous article on Codex Creep the focus of 40k rests squarely with Space Marines. 50% of the codexes are devoted to power armored marines and the actual playing pool at tournaments generally reflects a slightly higher percentage of marine armies. This does lead to people viewing Xenos books in a Space Marine light. You simply can’t do that. While most Space Marines play fairly similarly Nids for example are an entirely different mechanic. Same with Orks, Dark Eldar, or now Necrons. Each Xenos codex plays uniquely and needs to be taken on an individual basis.
Let’s use Corrollax’s example above where he compares Incubi and Purifiers. Again I’m not picking on Corrollax:
Well, they're both Elite units. They both have a 3+ armor save. They're approximately the same point cost (22 vs. 24 points). They both have S4 power weapons.
Now add on the fact that purifiers get instant death weapons, cleansing flame, hammerhand, more and better upgrade options, krak and psyk-out grenades, storm bolters and the ability to purchase a 2+ invuln save for the unit...
Now add on the fact that purifiers get instant death weapons, cleansing flame, hammerhand, more and better upgrade options, krak and psyk-out grenades, storm bolters and the ability to purchase a 2+ invuln save for the unit...
So you’ll note that the two units do have some similarities. You’ll also notice that only the benefits for the Purifiers are listed. But that’s not what I really want to delve into. What I want to delve into is instead of slightly similar units from two codexes let’s look at the roles the models play in those codexes and how both codexes appear to be designed.
Codex Dark Eldar is a nasty fast reacting force with massive amount of poison shooting with some solid CC (Beasts, Hellions, Incubi) that is designed around quickly overwhelming the opponent (the longer a DE unit is in combat the more likely they will lose). Granted this isn’t the only variation on what the codex can build but it’s definitely the most prevelant.
Codex Grey Knights is an elite, tough, midranged marine army designed to be mobile and put out lots of firepower. It’s got a high rate of fire depending on your movement but is hampered by its range. And generally, unless going pure foot, is going to be fairly outnumbered by its opponent.
So we have two armies in which shooting plays an important role but is implemented very differently. Incubi are designed for marine killing. They are not designed to kill power weapon armed units though if it’s small enough they should manage it just fine. It’s a unit that has a charge range of approximately 19” (can’t remember if they’re fleet right now so maybe more). Purifiers on the other hand are designed as a bit of a toolbox unit that shores the army up. They are the anti-horde/extra heavy weapon unit. They add quite a bit to the army in both rolls but have their drawbacks. They don’t perform the same role as Incubi in the DE list no matter their similarities on paper and so are inappropriate to compare with.
I see this happen quite often. And it seems to generally focus on comparing marine to xenos units to show how overpowered they are or how some codexes are better than those before it. This whole thing was kinda spur of the moment and brought on between Corrollax’s comment and the post on DakkaDakka about GK’s being OP in the tournament section.
Hope you guys enjoyed. J
Thor 59p · 694 weeks ago
Phazael · 694 weeks ago
Phazael · 694 weeks ago
Artemo · 694 weeks ago
The problem is exacerbated by people looking at units and prices (especially upgrade prices) in isolation without considering the rest of the codex options, and also by 'new things' (like the 'undying' characters - Thawn, Celestine, etc) that add something extra into the mix that needs to be catered for either tactically or (rarely) by list-adjustment.
spyguyyoda · 694 weeks ago
So now people are forced to make changes. Instead of seeing it as an ever-shifting metagame, they assume that things are changing just because the new book is so much stronger than the older books. What goes unsaid is that Fortitude >! Haywire, it just reduces it's effectiveness.
Also, I always peril when I roll for Fortitude.
Adam · 694 weeks ago
Son of Dorn · 694 weeks ago
Skarboy · 694 weeks ago
The issue isn't escalation, though; it's BALANCE. GW has no idea how to balance books between armies and it shows, principally between Xenos and Marines, but also just book to book regardless of race. Maybe this is due to differing writers and development teams, but the fact remains, some books are inherently stronger.
GW books are not designed against a "universal" metric of cost and effect; it's clearly subjective from designer to designer. This means that imbalances will exist because there is no quantifiable formula used to develop unit and character costs, and these are not consistent from book to book, unit to unit. This will always create efficiencies and inefficiencies, and those books with substantially more efficiencies will inherently be stronger. I think this is being heightened by the GK, as their "weaknesses" are exceedingly minimal and easy to mitigate, while their strengths obvious and overwhelming in many cases. Certainly no one is sitting around talking about how Necrons are overpowered, so it's really more of a book to book balance issue than any kind of "codex creep."
Now, exceptional players can elevate bad books and bad builds, and shitty players play good books, but is that really a measurable defense? Or is the combined weight of its players, the median placement, much more accurate? It's very difficult to measure this and tournament results often don't provide the data needed and it would be difficult to extricate "player skill" from the equation. All of this makes deciphering game and codex balance difficult, leaving the door open for opinion pieces like yours, Hulk. Your position is logical and rational, but it's extremely hard for me to believe that the game is balanced when I can open the Tyranid book or Chaos Space Marine book, rip out 2000 points, and know that it has virtually no shot against an average Space Wolves build. I know the game is not balanced when an otherwise solid codex like Dark Eldar has a minimal chance against typical IG or GK builds, simply due to the advantages those armies have to devastate DE weaknesses. A good book, a balanced set of books, should not present these obvious flaws, at least to this degree. There is a distinct lack of parity.
I do not believe there is a "codex creep" in the form of deliberate escalation of power to increase sales, but my experience absolutely leads me to believe there are very obvious imbalances in the game and I don't think the game benefits from it.
Hedzer · 694 weeks ago
theironjef · 694 weeks ago
Further, I think you showed a bit of a dodge there with your claim that "only the benefits of the Purifiers are shown" suggesting that the long list of awesome things incubi have was deliberately kept off the list for the sake of a fallacious argument. Well? What's that list? Oh wait, it's Power from Pain (woot a good one!), Night Vision (starting to get useless right away), a Klaivex no one takes because he's bad, two powers he could have taken but wouldn't because they're bad, a flamer option that's pretty bad. They do get a higher initiative! Until halberds, then it's lower again, which honestly doesn't matter because they don't have grenades or access to grenades outside of IC support, and ... that's it. I guess they have vehicles to be considered. There are no other purchasable upgrades. I'm assuming you knew this already, so why mention it and not flesh it out?
theironjef · 694 weeks ago
GoldenKaos · 694 weeks ago
TheGrog · 694 weeks ago
But there is meaning to such comparisons, as they tell you what happens when two units end up fighting unsupported. It turns out that winning an unsupported engagement matters, because now your opponent has to dredge up some synergy or support and you don't.
There is creep, as designers learn what will and won't work well. Or have attacks of competence/stupidity, as you prefer. Look at Grey Hunters/Blood Angel Tacs vs. ordinary Tacs. Or Blood Claws vs. ordinary Assault Marines, for the other end of the spectrum. Havocs with heavy weapons vs. Long Fangs. Falcon vs. Vendetta. Part of the reason Marines tend to come out well is that everybody has a lot of experience playing against them, and some of that experience is transferable. Because there are so many, the designers just know them well in general.
ShadarLogoth · 694 weeks ago
I don't have time to reply in bulk but I did want to look at this comment:
"GW books are not designed against a "universal" metric of cost and effect; it's clearly subjective from designer to designer."
That is just absurd. Over the long run design focus has certainly changed, but GW spends way more money and attention then many people realise on play-testing a new dex and balancing it within the current rules set and other dexes. While they are certainly not perfect, their is a reason most dexes spend years in development. That time is not spent just throwing random shit on the wall and seeing what sticks.
Skarboy · 694 weeks ago
Skarboy · 694 weeks ago
(not sure why this made me post as two comments...)
baconphat22 1p · 693 weeks ago
As I said, "approximate" balance is the goal; perfect is unattainable. It is possible to do a significantly better job at overall balance than GW is currently doing. I don't think anyone does GW a service by pretending the status quo is anything more than tolerable and the "GW apologists" actually do the hobby a tremendous disservice.
ShadarLogoth · 693 weeks ago
Call me a GW apologist all you want, but the numbers (and in this case their sales numbers) don't lie. They are the 700 lb gorilla of TTGs for a reason, and our very conversation here proves that more often then not they are getting it right. Their wouldn't be thousands of blogs devoted to a game if the game mechanics were as irredeemably out of whack as you make it out to be. I've spent my whole life in game development and I know a good product when I see one. And despite your misgivings it doesn't appear that has kept you from devoting at least a marginal amount of time to the hobby, so I suppose their is something you like about the game.
I don't have the time to go into detail by every unit you listed serves a suitable purpose in the right army. The only one I've never put into an army myself is Pyrovores, but their is nothing within itself that makes the unit bad, it just competes for a slot that Nids need anti-tank from within the current rule-set. Again, not that the unit is bad, but the role it plays isn't in high demand on the tournament scene.. That can change completely from meta to meta, and I would rather have the option in there then just another clone of something that the internet community think "works."
And by the way:
use·less
adjective
1.
of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile: It is useless to reason with him.
There is nothing any in Dex anywhere that is useless. Well I take that back, there are occasional pieces of war-gear that have become useless with successive rules changes, but I would say that is the exception rather then the rule.
N.I.B. · 693 weeks ago
Qdexy · 693 weeks ago