Last weekend we had a tournament at 2,200 points that I participated in. It was one force org only but otherwise followed all the rules for 6th. I’d been playing my walking GK’s pretty darn hard lately and since there wasn’t a painting requirement I said to hell with it and brought out my Daemons. If you haven’t been following my blog for long I have a bit of a love/hate thing with Daemons. I love them because they are just plain fun to play 90% of the time. And I hate them because that 10% is normally so bad the army goes back in the box for a few months J
Anyway I’d finally taken the plunge and started a plastic army of the regular daemon models. This included several units of screamers, flamers, and chariots which all got new or revamped rules recently. Basically they added another level to Daemons and provided plastic models I could get into so boom, back to daemons!
Back to the tournament since it matters to what comes later in this. So I brought my daemons and just some stuff I wanted to try in 6th since I hadn’t played a game with daemons or against them yet. One thing I avoided was FMC’s since there is no firm ruling on the grounded thing I’m not about to show up and have built a list including something I thought would work one way and be told it works another. Anyway I brought this:
3xTzeentch Herald on Disc
1xSlaanesh Herald on steed w/musk
3x7 Flamers
2x5 Horrors w/Bolt
2x8 Screamers
8 Mounted Daemonettes
3x3 Seeker Chariots
And allied in more for me getting a feel for the unit for a different army:
Primaris Psyker
PCS
3xInfantry Squads w/Autocannon, Plasmagun, Power Axe
So the Tzeentch Herald’s went with the flamers for wound allocation and the Slaanesh herald joined the mounted daemonettes for some h-n-r fun.
Overall it was a pretty good time. I wound up going 2-1 and pulling down best sport which is always nice when your two wins are just horribly lopsided but let’s get down to my thoughts.
Disclaimer: Bear in mind this isn’t the only way to play and hell, I might not even be close to right but it’s how I’m feeling right now.
On Daemons in General:
In general I think Daemons got a big boost. Granted I think most of the old army list styles like bolt-n-beast (oh silly Brent, thanks for the shout out on BOLS J) and fatecrusher are done but I think we got a ton more options. Brent goes into it a bit on his article here on BOLS:
So the game I lost was partially due to mistakes of having not played this style of daemon army before. Partially due to my opponent being one of our better local players, and partially due to the table being nearly 25% impassable terrain. Something I learned but hadn’t processed until now was the impassable itself isn’t the issue as I’ve found the reduced chance of death is pretty nice. No it’s the fact that impassable terrain limits your ability to deploy as a cohesive force and allows you to be chopped up in pieces. And daemons really need to be able to deploy as a cohesive force.
With shooting being so much more prevalent bigger squads are going to be needed (here Brent and I agree J). I also think that Horrors are going to be a primary unit for us to use. It’s a unit that is moderately resilient but also has the ability to contribute to the game outside of CC, something none of the other troop choices really do.
Also I think flamers are going to be much, much more used. I know that after this weekend I fully intend to rock 3 squads of these at all times. Which when combined with the Horrors means a significant portion of your list can actually shoot now. This kinda brings me to my next point:
Creating lists to split drops nearly down the middle now is not a good thing. This is just personal opinion so far but I think it’s where we’re headed. You need two waves, built separately, each with a strength should they be the first to go down on the table. This will probably make more sense after the unit thoughts so we’ll jump to them.
Seeker Chariots:
New kids on the block. These bad boys are 40pts of big based fun and because of them I need a bigger display board....Regardless of that I think they are an amazing addition to the daemon book. Some people won’t agree. They are squadrons of armor 11 models with only 2 hull points and they’re open topped. All true, they also have enormous bases which creates a massive foot print J
However what they do provide, for a mere 120pts for 3 of them, is a genuine threat. These things, if not killed, produce insane numbers of attacks and have a large threat radius. They’re hammer of wrath makes them dangerous to vehicles and troops alike. The ability to flat-out 12” off the deepstrike (with a 16% chance to immobilize) means you can redeploy them to ensure they are a threat on the following turn. Overall they are a solid choice but not one I wouldn’t take multiples of. I think if you take a single squadron you’re gonna be disappointed in the results. The value of these units is exponentially better the more you take.
Screamers:
I like them. I think they do an admirable job and make a great stand-in for fiends. This is another unit that can redeploy after landing (up to 24”) and even gets to attack on the turn it does the redeployment (if a unit is close enough to fly over). These units are a terror to mech and marine players and absolutely eat vehicles and basic marine squads. Though I found out that disordered charges might not be the best thing even if they did eventually come out on top. Against an opponent that is familiar with the rules these models should have an extremely high threat profile.
Flamers:
Oh dear lord…..I read the rules and knew they’d gotten better. I knew they’d be worth taking. But holy mother of whatever deity sounds right to you are these fellas just nasty. I recommend big squads personally and always led by a herald. If you have 5 extra points add a sergeant model too. Why? Wound allocation is huge with these guys. 2 wounds and wound allocation means distributing them properly is a big deal to keeping the unit viable longer. This is a unit that pretty much can’t be charged by anything without a 3+ invul or 10+ models. It’s jump infantry with an 18” 3-shot st4 weapon that’s ap4 and it has a flamer of doom. Warpfire allows you to deploy more conservatively and lay on wounds and then be able on the next turn to really lay on the hurt with the templates. They strip vehicles of hull points like they are going out of style which solves our Landraider issue.
Overall I think this is the new fiend. 23pts for a jumping 4+ to wound, no armor save flame template with 2 wounds is ridiculously good and slots in well.
Horrors:
Still good but bigger units are probably going to be needed now.
Mounted Daemonettes:
Gonna need a bigger squad. Overwatch and shooting means this unit is a go big or go home type unit. Meaning 15+ and then the herald becomes required to maintaint their mobility. Honestly not feeling these over a slightly lower number of screamers at this point. Their footprint is just as large as screamers, if not more so, and they can’t redeploy after the drop. Oh well, wanted to give them a go.
So back to the building a list with two separate components that both have a purpose and no more even splitting of units down the middle. Now I know I wasn’t the only fella who tried to mitigate the random by building a list that basically split down the middle so my first wave roll didn’t matter but I think I was doing it wrong even back then. More so now.
As you can see from the rest of the article I’m a big fan of some of the new units. The list I’m currently toying with is going to run around 11-12 units at 1850-2k and is going to look something like:
3xHerald of Tzeentch on Disc
3x7 Flamers
3x9 Horrors
3x6 Screamers (or 2x9)
3x3 Chariots
How does this apply to my new thoughts on my daemons. I’ve basically got a shooting and cc wave. Both have extreme threats. In the cast of the shooting wave the flamers are scary as hell but even an entire armies shooting (which shouldn’t happen) shouldn’t be able to drop them which keeps the pain off the troops and gives my assault wave time to land and deploy properly. The CC wave gives two extreme threats, both of which are resistant, and require dedication of a significant portion of an army to eliminate and generally leaving the other intact to start it’s rampage on turn 2.
6th has changed a lot of things. But I think for daemons it’s for the better. After Nova I’ll be doing a lot more playing with my daemons but I figured I’d share this before I head off for one of my favorite events of the year J
Logging you in...
Neil Gilstrap · 657 weeks ago
So, you drop in with Flamers and do significant damage on the drop, usually being able to hit with 3/4 flamers depending on circumstance and target. Big bird does his as well plus any other DPs you might have taken with more Breath weapons. This will torch most high priority targets immediately.
Then, the enemy is a HUGE conundrum. As you stated, you can't exactly assault Flamers else you will get BBQ'ed with over-watch.
Being that you need 6's to hit turbo-chicken in the first place (and even if you don't depending on how you resolve grounded), it still takes, generally, an entire army worth of shooting to kill him.
Thing is, if you do that, you are now double screwed because those Flamers are fixing to unfurl and lay waste to your army as now all 5-9 Flamers can hit targets and BBQ them.
So, go ahead and shoot the Flamers with their 2 wounds and 5++ re-roll save. Or shoot big bird. You are screwed either way. :P
If you are playing NoVA rules where you still need 6's to hit Fatey even after a grounded, then firing your entire army at him isn't reliable either.
As I said in another thread, having had just a boat load of test games against new Demons, they are absolutely disgusting with the new units in 6th edition.
And you are spot on with Screamers. The re-deploy is mega good and they are basically the new Blood Crusher except they are FAST.
Stormy · 657 weeks ago
Neil, I think you're underestimating how many shots Flamers can get when they drop as I reckon you can get a lot more than 3 or 4 shots with the unit when they arrive.
Page 36 of BRB:
1. Place a guy in the middle and scatter. Use a pleb and not Herald/Pyro as you'll need them for Wound Allocation.
2. Here's what the book has to say:
'Next the unit's remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model in a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.'
So after you've placed Plebby MacGee in the middle, you surround him with a ring of other plebs and the Pyro who goes where you want him to cause problems to enemy units with his LO,S rule (typically, but not always, on the opposite side of the unit to the Herald) while the Herald with his larger base is put into base contact with the central guy and the remaining models are all placed in base with the Herald, leaving a gap for the Herald (if he has Breath) to fire out and crucially giving more room for the rest of the unit to throw out more Templates. You can always place guys to the side of already placed models if you have a big squad of them in order to keep the number of Templates being fired to a maximum.
I've had several games with a 10-man unit (9 Flamers + Pyro + Breath Tzerald) throw out 7 Templates on the turn they arrive and floor a unit and a vehicle when they arrive although I've had a few mishaps by dropping but that's to be expecting when you're dropping them in balls-deep in the enemy.
As for units that can counter this you've got to watch out for Swarms, particularly big units of Scarabs and Nurglings. The problem with the former is that there are better targets to hit with Flamers while the Overwatch shooting isn't as good against them as a normal round of shooting is while they'll bog you down in combat once they do get in there and you'll either have to spend ages chewing through them or you'll be held in place long enough for more dangerous units to get stuck in.
Out of curiousity, have you tried Nurgling swarms yet? I've found that despite the reduction you get in shooting they are an excellent tarpit thanks mainly to EW. They're a handy unit to have to pin something down and buy time for your Screamers to arrive and clean house. Saying that I've yet to try them out against GK so I suppose I have to qualify my statement above to accommodate that fact but I'm looking forward to giving them a go at some point.
Brent · 656 weeks ago
Hulk, you may have changed my mind about the Seeker Chariots - I just wasn't thinking about them in numbers that way. Guess I was stuck on the idea of squads of one, missing the forest for the trees and all that!
I've been working on a bit different take, but I'll admit I dig your army. I imagine it'll be nasty...
jamie · 654 weeks ago
if a FMC gets shots and the unit is HIT resolve the shot roll 2 wound take saves etc THEN roll a single dice (regardless of the amount of shots its only 1 dice) 3+ ur fine nothing happens 1 or 2 u fall out the sky take a str9 hit with no armour or cover saves THEN the FMC is now a normal jump MC and can be charged etc
jamie · 654 weeks ago
Hulksmash · 654 weeks ago
Yeah, I was aware of how the grounded tests worked. I was referring to the ongoing argument at the time of whether a FMC still counted as swooping after being grounded per RAW. The FAQ fixed that little issue :)
Glad you liked the article. I oopsied on the immobolization thing since you don't have to take that outside of moving thru terrain so chariots are even better than I thought.